Vitodens Install Photos (Brad White)

Ragu_5

Very nice job, my friend!

I totally agree with the common thread that everybody in this post is saying; an engineering guy who actually has done the hands on! No more engineer jokes from me anymore. See ya.

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Brad White_9

Finally Heat at Susan's

I fired up the Vitodens 6-24 on November 3rd-

Here are progress photos from the install and there is still some buttoning up to do. (If anything looks out of plumb, believe me, it is the house! 1922 construction and really bad concrete work. If you drop a marble I can tell you where it will go. My work emphasized the Fun House Effect

The work started with insulating and putting plywood on the walls and moving a DWV line to give me a field to work in.

So far a 34 degree day, the coldest before today, was requiring 111 degrees F. to the radiators, house holds 68F like a dream. Tepid to the hand and the house holds beautifully. Bountiful baths too.

The return filter is a Neptune Filter Feeder with a 5 micron bag and a handful of rare earth magnets to scavenge any free iron from the old radiators. Rhomar HydroSolve was used after TSP and before Rhomar 922.

May post more later.

Cheers!

Brad

Paul Pollets

Nice!!

Nice Job. I like the use of black pipe from the LLH. I may have to copy that, with copper prices off the wall.

What type of indirect DHW tank are you using?

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jackchips_2

Very

nice.

Hey Brad, the installing engineer, White, send us your resume' in case we ever go back into HVAC.

Jack

Brad White_9

Thanks, Paul!

The use of black iron was as much for structural reasons in that the headers support the circulators. I have EZ-Headers with three taps, one now and two future for an addition that needs re-building. Those will be radiant with the feeds dropping down. Copper is isolated by the circulator assemblies of course.

Copper- I re-piped the entire basement and have PAP runouts to the original 1" and 1.25" iron risers. Mains are loops all the way around, 1" to the mid-point and joining 3/4" at the far end. Very low system PD's. Flow rate to the radiators is 4.5 GPM. The future flow will be about 8.0 so I went with the LLH now. I like the concept.

The good news is, about half the copper and fittings I used I already had at my own house, including the 1.25" copper between the Vito and the LLH...

DHW is a SuperStor SSU-45 with a Grundfos 15-58FC on the inlet, in series to the Vitodens internal circulator. I have a Tour and Andersson balancing valve and it is balanced to match the Vito primary flow as closely as I could, by both pressure and temperature. Works without a hiccup using Viessmann's relay kit.

Paul Pollets

Internal pump coding

Are you running the internal pump at 100% or the factory default of 65% for max pump rotation-- coding # 045?

I usually set it at 100% when feeding radiators off the LLH.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Paul: I believe that the minimum and maximum circulator speeds (addresses 044 and 045) are only for "heating circuit" mode, e.g. when the boiler is directly connected to emitters.

When the LLH temp sensor is installed, the boiler switches the internal circulator to "boiler circuit" mode and varies the speed to maintain the conditions stated for the LLH--most important of which are "energy in = energy out" and "primary (boiler) flow less than secondary (emitter) flow".

On my system (fully TRVd gravity conversion) I completely "opened" the circulator speed, e.g. minimum is 1 and maximum is 100 or an RPM range of about 700 to 2700. This was done a Viessmann's suggestion.

Brad White_9

I believe

that I set that at 100% to allow full modulation range. That was my intent.

I coded the Vitodens twice, call it three times in that during the second session some of the addresses "scrolled over" (were absent, even "000"). Some had settings that would not "take" adjustment; rather than a 0-99 range all I got was a one or a zero.

Re-booting the Vitodens restored them and I believe it is fully coded now. System setup is per Diagram 3 (LLH and no mixing valve) which is, IIRC, Code address 000 setting 001.

Curve is set at 1.1 down from an initial 1.2 and the place holds fine. Keep coding suggestions coming! I am new at this. And special thanks to Mike Thies for his off-line and on-line support!

Unknown

Nice

Very nice install Brad! You sure thought this out well. I`m going to try one of these in a new house on the Seaway soon. Again,,,VERY NICE, but then, we expected no-less from ya!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Just Verified

The minimim and maximum codings for the circulator have no effect when the LLH is used. The circulator is strictly under the control of the boiler and can operate at any speed in its range to maintain the LLH parameters.

Paul Pollets

LLH & coding

I just came back from a service call where the 65% factory setting was resulting in a LLH/system temp of 95 degrees. Boiler was firing at 120 degrees. The home (wall panel rads) was cold. Turned the 045 code to 100% and the system temp went to 115 in 3 minutes. ??

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Brad White_9

With my setup now

the boiler outlet temperature and the radiator supply temperature match within a degree (my ability to measure with a dial thermometer versus a thermistor). So I suspect the 65% speed setting is now 100% or at least is released from factory default.

Robert O'Brien

Nice job!

Ever since meeting you I've had reconsider my opinion of Engineer's. I've been on a number of Engineer installed systems(the fact that I was there at all tells the story) and you definitely bridge the gap between the practical and theoretical,which is very rare. A very nice job and I am not suprised at all.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Interesting. I verified that through a Viessmann technician. Did you bring up the target temp and compare to that in the LLH?

Rick_54

Nice Job Brad

I take back everything I said about Engineers. You are the Man! No wonder you are Dan's favorite Engineer on the Wall...

Rick

Dan Foley

Nice

Nice looking job, Brad - for an engineer! Just kidding, I couldn't resist. Got to get my shots in when I can. It is an installation to be proud of!

What kind of shot feeder is that? How is it piped? I rarely see them on resdiential systems but makes it easy to add chemicals or glycol. -DF

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Are you up for an experiment Brad?

How about setting both the mininum and maximum circulator settings to about 20 in fairly cold weather? Surely that would affect operation profoundly if those settings affect the circulator in "boiler circuit mode". Worst thing that could happen is that the house would cool. If you have one of those great little Grundfoss key-chain rotating magnetic field indicators you can get a rough idea of the rotational speed of the circulator.

I'd do myself if I had a LLH...

ALH_4

Nice

No Viessmann neutralization unit? ;-) I agree with adding the secondary DHW booster pump to the small Vitodens, even a 6-24. Is there a drip leg on the gas line?

The Neptune filter looks to be a first class unit.

Very nice!

-Andrew

Brad White_148

Coming from you, Dan

That is a high compliment indeed! No worries on taking a shot now and again. I have a good side business selling fellow engineers social skills.

The shot feeder is a 2-Gallon Neptune Filter Feeder. Neptune is out of PA. It is a commercial grade product but to me, as protection of a ModCon connected to an old system, is essential. I have one on my own house and now Susan's. Yes, great to add chemicals and to keep the downstream side clean. I still use the Silver King force pump for occassional dosing/adjusting for pH, etc. Although known as a "bypass feeder", on small systems it takes 100% of the flow. Pressure drop is less than half a foot.

In the photo that shows it, the return (the one you see labeled- who says we are smart?) comes down and through a 1" wye strainer (the blow-off valve of which is also a purge port). It continues down and enters high in the side of the feeder. Flow exits the opposite side, low, where there is a drain. Inside the feeder is a perforated SS basket and a non-woven 5-micron filter (50, 20 and 5 micron bags available) nests within the SS basket.

There is a bypass around it (CCW from behind the feeder, reconnecting at 8-o'clock to the return back to the EZ-Header) which allows me to change the filter or to put the filter off-line for any reason. What I failed to do is to install a high vent on the feeder side of the isolation valve. That would make draining it/relieving vacuum, a breeze. Next time!

Brad White_148

Neutralizer

Thanks Andrew-

The neutralizer is my home-made design,-you figured!- not fully in place yet but is working. The first 24 hours of operation FILLED a 5-gallon bucket to overflowing. Incredible condensing. I thought I would have time to get the neutralizer into operation so that speeded me up a bit.

The DHW circulator- I did not want to find out that it would work or not without it. Better safe than sorry, for we were using space heaters holding off the weather. Did not want any glitches.

Yes, there is a drip leg on the gas line, where the main drop is, to the left just out of the picture. Good catch though and I am glad you asked. Not required by code anymore for some reason, but it is a good habit.

Cheers!

B.

Christian Egli_2

Fluffy is not there anymore?

You can tell this system is pampered: all the gauges, the curve chart pined to the wall and the chair - to sit on while staring at the dials waiting for them to do something.

And, man, wow, the chemical feeder... I'd be opening up that thing every five minutes, just to look inside and see what the rare earth magnets may have just caught. And there's the acid neutralizer to go poke into.

However, I notice Silky stays away from you and the sawzall. Haven't you beaten your 14 seconds record yet?

Your Susan is lucky to have you, Brad, and... it's obvious, you still have all your marbles, there's no way any could roll away from you. Your brain is like a rare earth magnet.

Neat. Thanks for showing.

Yours truly, Christian

Wayco Wayne_2

My favirite part

id the chair in front of the boiler. Better than video games or TV. I use a lawn chair myslf. WW

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Paul Rohrs_5

Brad

Some time back you were looking for wick and material for your threaded connections. What did you wind up using and how did it work out?

It really looks great. Do you have any plans for data-logging? If yes, tell me the method to your madness.

Paul

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David Sutton_6

Brad, very nice !!

Busted a gut with the cat photo, i had a cat do that to me putting in a boiler and added 10 yrs to my life ;-0.

Thats a fine looking job sir fine indeed


David

Brad White_148

Wick and Data

Hey Paul! Thanks for that.

Howie Bernstein and Clammy both came to my rescue with hemp. Clammy got me some German hemp that looked like hair from Ilsa the Barmaid. Beautiful stuff. Howard got me some fine hemp also and I used much of it on those BSP connections. No leaks! Thanks to both of them.

Data logging- Not set up yet but I have to get going. I was going to use the Onset one (I forget the name but the $300 one). They suggested a 4-channel logger. I also suggested to Onset that they make a logger that automatically calculates degree-days so you can have parallel data.

Nothing fancy about it, just temperatures for now. Vito operation (state and current) is easy enough to do but not sure what it will tell me compared to the gas bill. I will keep you posted and I welcome any ideas!

Brad

lund

Brad,

Nice work. Love those cush clamps and the Large lettering.

Thanks for posting,

Lund

Tombig_5

Nice!

Great job, Brad. Ya gotta love an engineer that can assemble the pieces as well as he conceives and draws them. Now we know why you were building your own "drum trap neutralizer"

Tom Goebig

Perry_2

Looks Great & Data logging

Brad:

Perhaps you and I should start a heating business....

Glad you got it done. I was to the point that one more "reluctance" issue with my heating contractor and I was going to self install (in December - I would have lived with the old boiler for a while). But, I did not have to do that. I would have loved to show that another engineer could build things well.

Concerning data-logging. I had though of the same thing; but at this point have not adopted it. I need to get the LWCO installed - and I have figured out how to do that and have a UPS as well (the LWCO wires to one of the Vitodens plugs - and only interupts the firing circuit: it replaces the installed wire loop on one of the plugs - and then a jumper needs to be set on the circuit board).

For datalogging; I have the capability to install a pressure guage across the secondary circulating pump - and determine how much head - and thus flow - it is pushing. That will allow me to determine BTU's/hr as well. A future project.

Best of luck with things. Keep me posted.

Perry

Constantin

Excellent!

The Vitodens looks definitely like it is at an angle... unless you use the plumbing stack as a reference, and then it's straight again!

Great job Brad! I see lots of nicely-soldered joints and other attention to detail. I like the strainer on the system return as well as the welded (Earthlee?) header. Issues with air should become a thing of the past with that huge spirovent...

Besides bringing lots of comfort and low energy bills, I doubt anyone will hear this system because the plethora of Mupro clamps will hold everything in place while dampening any vibration that may exist. The sealed combustion air intake will also protect the boiler from the laundry room down there.

I really like the ball valves around the circulators and the multiple temp/pressure gages. Is there a particular reason you went with separate gages? I thought I had seen pressure + temp gages being used by Milne & Chris, that seems like a great way to reduce the number of potential leaking points.

I like the insulation in progress... that sticker wouldn't have been an extra at work, now would it? :-P I made my own using a laser printer... works OK though those labels are not quite as sticky as I would like.

One more thing: anyone interested in datalogging should consider the WEL at www.ourcoolhouse.com because that system is pretty powerful IMO. Though you would be dependent on the availbility of (and Phils support for) 1-wire sensors, there are many ways to measure BTU loss that are already supported.

For example, you could use a water meter with a reed switch to measure absolute flow and two temp sensors to measure delta-T. Presto, BTU-meter!

[Deleted User]

Mahvelous, simpry mahvelous...

Not bad for a maniacal engineer:-)

If you ever decide to become a maniacal contractor like me, let me know. I'd consider hiring you :=)

Your Susan doesn't know how lucky she really is...

Happy Thanksgiving my maniacal friend!

ME

brucewo1b

Exellant Workmanship Brad

And makes me a bit ashamed of all those thoughts I have had over the years about architects and engineers.

Ted_9

Vitodens

Nice job Brad. Want a job with us?


Massachusetts

Weezbo

Thank you for sharing

Looks Industrial *~/:)

i think i need to see Silkys Electrical Phitness card:) just a formality ... buh, with the dubious techniques i got to figure it is out of date:)

neat trick making that inside corner Look square:) i worked on a place a few weeks back that is like put the marbles on the ground with 4" of foam and 2" of gypcrete and they still roll at that corner

thats what is especially cool about my crystal ball:) it is made of rubber and i can bounce it off the floors ......

and then let it roll to the corner:)

hr

What a piece of

nice work Quite the crossover artist, you are.

hot rod

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Josh_10

Good job buddy!! I like it.

Steamhead (in transit)

Uhhhhh, Brad

Dan H. says those arrows have to go on the INSIDE of the pipe, so the water will know which way to go ;-)

Looks good. You should see a nice drop in gas consumption, just in time for your local unregulated monopoly to jack up the price per therm again, the way they did to Swampy.....

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Darin Cook_6

Brad

You talk the talk AND walk the walk. That is most gratifying to see in an engineer! Those fuel bills will score you some BIG points with the lady of the house!! Very Nice!!





TSGT Darin Cook,
Air Expeditionary Forces,
Iraq

Brad White_149

I filled it with water

filtered through a "GE SmartWater" filter, so maybe I am OK?

That is the double-edged sword of regulated monopolies. Their upward rise in costs is "regulated" in theory but they also are insulated from market forces because they are guaranteed to make a profit. Absent the downside risk, why contain costs?

Still, the number of therms we will use should go down fiercely!

Thanks, Frank!

Brad

Uni R_2

Ummm Mike...

"I'd do myself if I had a LLH..."

Ummm, whatever you want to do in the privacy of your own boiler room is fine with us. LOL


Brad, very nice install. You covered the bases extremely well.