Buderus GB 142/60 times three (Ray L)

Ted_9

Ray, you don't show it in the pics, but where are the drain tees for the vent? Are they up high before they make that long horizontal run?


I have to agree with Scott here.

Scott: I noticed on the last few Buderus pump/mix stations that on that sheet they give you, it shows a way to swap the supply and return connections. I haven't done this yet though.

Good work Ray. Looks like your spending lots of time to make this a great install.

Massachusetts

Ray Landry_3

perty red and blue pipes

It seems every year around this time we always end up with a large boiler installation in a church, and this one is definetley the biggest I've ever done. We are removing over 30 steam radiators and all associated (accessible) piping to install buderus panel radiators with pex home runs back to manifolds in the new mechanical room. We're really starting with a clean pallet, as we are using the room adjacent to the current mechanicals to house our new systems.

Typically the cost to convert a steam system to FHW is so great that the savings will not offset the installation cost, but I really think that this one will. all steam piping is inside of crawlspaces throughout the church, as well as many steam traps. The cost associated with repairs alone is so great each year, not to mention the lack of control the steam system has, (failed motorized zone valves, lack of TRV's, ect) will play a huge role in this install.

We started our piping on Tuesday, and all in all I'm pretty happy with the progess we've made so far. Venting is ALMOST done, still need to run the condensate, add a row of unistrut to support the piping in the hallway, and tie in the far left boiler (once the steam return lines are gone) The hardest part about this job is we're prepping all the hw lines and boilers while the steam is still active. The other side of the church is already hot water, so that part will be easy. I am however adding a three way mixer to temper down the water to their parish hall, the convectors are so oversized I'm worried that the reset curve I set for the pan rads will still be too high for the load requirment the hall dictates. So a tekmar 360 with indoor sensor is my fix.

The control strategy is a tekmar 265 boiler reset/stage control, a tekmar 360 for the mixer, EM10 cards to modulate the boilers, and taco ZVC boxes for the telestat heads I'm putting on my 1 1/4 calleffi manifolds. three hi temp buderus pump stations, a mix station, and 2 15/58 grundfoss's take care of the circulating.

Does anyone see a problem with the way I tied in the LWCO? I twinned all the 1" taps for the IDHW together so that all three boilers would be connected to my LWCO loop, but I'm worried that when my inderect calls that the water may migrate into the other boilers or quite possibly my 2 1/2" header and into the hydro-seperator. I am thinking maybe a check valve just beyond the 1" tee before it rises up to the LWCO, I will drill a relief hole in the swing check so that in the event of a loss in water the water will still drain from the lwco loop, but will still give me enough restricion to stop ghost flow. Am I overthinking this one?

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Uni R_2

Wow!

I wonder if the altar looks half as nice?

Excellent work!!!

Couderay

boilers

Very nice install

Mark Wolff_2

A few things

The copper where it runs across the galvanized strut needs to have 10 mil. tape on it to isolate the metals. Also, what is that black iron pipe running overhead on the left side of your install with the copper male adapter threaded into it without any dielectric protection? Also the copper out of the boilers into the supply and return manifolds are not transitioned through dielectrics.

The T&P valve installation under the boilers are not code either, they must be installed directly into the safety or relief valve opening on the boiler or pressure vessel(I know the photo on Buderus' website shows it mounted similar, but code is code).

Grundfos recommends putting more space between the 90* ell and your pump outlets as well(once again there's no excuse for Buderus' photo on their website). Here on the wall a few people might wonder why you aren't pumping away too, though it isn't a code issue, just some peoples preference.

As for the low water cutoff, they are individually required on every boiler the way the code reads.

ScottMP

Mark

So your in the Die-electric camp huh ? I've been working on boilers for twenty two years and have Never used them. There is no need in my book unless you have some stray voltage coming from some where and a ground should take care of that. Die-electric's are good for leaks and maybe job sercurity in my book. Do you install one on every return to the boiler that makes a iron to copper connection ?

Actually most all Buderus boilers do not have the relief directly coming out of the boiler and the GB model has NO Tapping for it. Also for the record, the relief is a Presure only relief and is not a T&P. A Temperature and Preasure relief is used for Domestic Water Heating.

Pumping away is the preferred methond of piping for most of us here on the wall but if you are familiar with mod/con boilers you would find that the majority of them Need to have the circulator pumping towards thems to have proper flow to operate properly.

Ray, Very Nice work. I can see you have a great deal of pride in what you do. How did you reverse the tappings on the mixing stations ?

Scott

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Ray M

Ray, Nice use of the pumping stations, they happen to be one of my favorites. Very nice install.

Thanks

Ray M

Ray M

I have done it it is a snap.
Thanks

Ray m

Ray Landry

Mark, how many times have you gone back on a dieelectric fitting leaking on a closed loop hydronic system? There is no oxygen in the water to break down the c x iron connection, therefore they are not needed. I've seen more of them leak then htey're worth. I've installed probably around 300 boilers in the last 5 years and have NEVER installed one and NEVER had a problem. I always use c x male adapters though, c x female tend to leak. I also don't see an issue with the grundfoss pump being near 90's, in fact that header is made by buderus. I'm not sure which code you're reffering to but the PRESSURE relief, not T and P must be installed within 6" of the boiler, with no shut offs in between. Again this relief location is made by buderus, and it's the way every buderus goes in. The primary loop pump is always mounted on the return on the GB 142, notice all my secondary pumps are pumping away.

Ray Landry

Thank you all for the kind words. Scott and Ted, the pump stations are actually really easy to swap supply and return. You just loosen all of the quick connecters, change the direction of your pressure differential valve, and swap the station cover from once side to the next. It makes piping much simpler! Still couldn't find a good way to make the larger 2699 pump fit in the station, I had to hack the front with a sawzall. Oh well.

Still curious if anyone has any input on my LWCO piping.

tim smith

dialectrics

We don't use any dialectrics but we do use somewhat of a bridge, we always use brass from steel to copper in between. Helps to bridge the materials. Usually a 4 to 6" long nipple. Just mho, Tim.

Steve Minnich_3

Great workmanship Ray! Just one thing and maybe it's something I'm not seeing, it looks like the boilers are piped direct return. Two or more GB142's are suppose to be piped reverse return. Yes/no?

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Brad White_146

Ray, Thank You

My House is now warm and toasty -and for less money! Even though I have more money than, oh, never mind..

What is important is that what is in the collection plate can now go farther; more Jello salads, hot dishes and the Ladies Auxilliary rummage sale can turn a profit now.

You do great work!

Yeah, Verily-

G.

David Sutton_6

Outstanding Ray !!

Very nice, How long did it take you from start to finish? And what shade of blue did you use, as far as the piping goes its top notch, I dont use the dio unions either, find no need to have to go back and replace them.

Keep up the good work !!


David

Ryan Butler

GB142-30 Piping

I am not as familiar with Buderus boilers. I am looking into installing the GB142-30 into one of my customers houses. They have two types of heating right now set up on an old oil boiler. There is radiant floor heat in one side of the house using pex piping and two hot water coils over a individual air handling units. I noticed in the install instructions they recomend using a heat exchanger if using oxygen-permeable piping.I am not familiar with this.
I also noticed the piping layout for the boiler is oppsite of what i am used to. The air scoop and bladder tank is on the return side of the boiler. They also recommend using a dirt filter in the return when hooking up to an exsisitng system. I am converting this to propane.
I would like some advice on how to pipe these two different loops. A layout if possible and why is the piping opposite of how i normally pipe on the suppy side. I would also like an explaination on why the advise using a seperate heat exchanger for oxygen permeable piping.

Thanks for any help

Ray Landry

Wow, I'm flattered, I even got a message from god! Steve, I've never had a problem piping direct return with multiple 142's when using the caleffi hydro seperator. THe boiler pumps allow the load to be equal across all three boilers when running without using reverse return. Is it a good idea? Yes it is, and I am going to call calleffi and get their insight on this. Thanks for the idea! David, thanks for the kinds words, the shade of blue I used was the one that I eyeballed to be buderus blue at home depot, can't remember the name I can try to get it off the can though. We started this job this week, had monday for our prep day of building/painting the wall, pentetrating the block wall for all of our piping, and doing a general walk through of the church. Myself and two helpers have four piping days in it so far, I wanted to be completely done with the piping last week, but the obsessive complusive side of me is pushing our completion day for near boiler piping to monday or tuesday. Still need to run four 1 1/2 lines approx 60 ft each to serve the nursery school, mount manifolds, ect. We have three more weeks on this job for total time, there's 30 panel radiators to pipe home runs two three stories up, steam demo, ect. This glory work part of it sure is fun, but I'm dreading all the crawlspace work!


Ryan, to answer your question (I wish I had visio to make a sketch!) Picture the buderus pre made header as nothing more than a set of closely spaced tees to create a primary/secondary piping scenario. With your pump on your return side of the boiler header, your expansion tank/scoop should go on the return side (right side) and your system pumps on the left side (supply side) this way all pumps pump away from the ponpc. What is the BTU load on the radiant side of this home? A taco I series three way mixing valve may be the way to go because it has a built in outdoor reset feature which gives you greater efficiency on your radiant loop. Depending what your temperature requirmants are will dictate your reset curve for your AHU's, but this can be done with the AM 10 control that buderus gives you with the boiler. It is recomended that you utilize a flat plate heat exchanger when ever dealing with non oxygen barrier tube, this is because any ferrous materials in the system will be eaten away if it comes in direct contact with the pex tube. What brand pex is there? If it has an oxygen barrier than you're OK. Simply make a supply header adequatley sized (probably either 1" or 1 1/4") Make your first two tee's your AHU loads, then install a shutoff, hot side of three way mixer, cold side of three way mixer goes directly to the boiler return header, with a tee in it of course to pick up your radiant loop return, off of the mix side of the three way mixer install a pump and a temp guage so that the mix valve can be dialed in, then pipe to your manifold for your pex tube, also provide a temp/purge set up on your return from your pex. The boiler return I usually like to install my air eliminator, close nip, ball valve, close nip, purge tee, then all tees for the system returns. Remember, DHW loop gets pulled off the pre made header provided by buderus, make SURE to look at the install manual you need a BIG pump for ANY size inderect when using the 142 due to the primary circ shutting off on a call for DHW

Ted_9

haha

Massachusetts




Nice email addy God: G-Man@Yaweh.com

Mark Wolff_2

Dielectric

I don't like leaking dielectric unions any more than the next guy, yes they can leak (especially with glycol in the system) and the rubber dries and cracks. However I also don't like it when pressure relief valves (thanks for the catch!) continue to drip from being opened only once in the last 10 years, but what do we do, leave it out or fix it.

The codes written and adopted throughout the United States and most industrialized countries are not random thoughts to make our lives difficult, they are there for our safety, the safety of our customers, and the longevity and proper functioning of the systems we install.

To answer your question, every tapping from my boilers gets a dielectric before it goes to copper, with 2 exceptions to that several years ago. I felt so bad about them I will never do it again.

I have had to replace over 300' of 2", 2 1/2" and 3" type K copper supply and return lines in a large hospital because the installing heating contractor didn't think dielectric unions were necessary and the inspector missed it. That was after three years and countless leaks. Stray voltage is carried through the piping (ever seen the electrician ground the system to the copper water line?). High or low voltage does not matter, the contact of water on two differing metallic parts will create a transfer of energy that we know as electrolysis. That transfer will erode the weaker metal, that's why sacrificial anodes are welded to the bottom of boats and screwed into the tops of water heaters.

If there is no need for dielectrics in your book, please update it to current code and industry standards.

IMC 1203.1.1 Joints between different piping materials. Joints between different piping materials shall be made with approved adapter fittings. Joints between different metallic piping materials shall be made with approved dielectric fittings or brass converter fittings.

UPC 508.1 The AHJ may require the use of an approved dielectric insulator on the water piping connections of water heaters and related water heating equipment.

UPC 313.5 Piping subject to corrosion, erosion, or mechanical damage shall be protected in an approved manner.

UPC 316.2.1 Joints from copper tubing to threaded pipe shall be made by the use of brass adapter fittings. The joint between the copper tubing and the fitting shall be properly soldered, and the connection between the threaded pipe and the fitting shall be made with a standard pipe size screw joint.

Not to beat the point to death, but if you aren't piping this way, you might want to freshen up on the current code books for your area.

I don't mean to disrespect your knowledge and experience, I know you have a vast knowledge, but perhaps this is one area you may want to consider re-assessing.

IMC 1006.5 Safety or relief valves shall be installed directly into the safety or relief valve opening on the boiler or pressure vessel. Valves shall not be located on either side of a safety or relief valve connection. The relief valve shall discharge by gravity.

The lack of tapping for the pressure relief does not negate the codebook, correct? 70% of inspectors may even pass it, but the point I was making was not whether it would work, but rather whether it was right.

Ted_9

Mark, can you show use the science behind this? Any reference material. I'm not interested in code, just scientific proof.

In my state, there are no codes for small residential systems.

Massachusetts

Ryan Butler

Interesting

Ray, Thanks for the response. I did not even recognized the PONPC on the return side. I went back to look at the diagram then it was clear as day. I beleive the radiant loops were piped in with IPex unsure of manufacturer. I think i have an idea of the piping layout that you are talking about. If you run across a diagram let me know. The another question about the dirt filter when connecting to an exsisting heating system is this for just more precaution. Have you used alot of these GB142 since they came out and have you been pleased with the prefomance.

Mark Wolff_2

proof

http://library.advanced.org/3659/electrochem/electrolysis.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric

http://www.finishing.com/196/27.shtml

http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-d01-dielectrics.htm

These articles, though boring to many, will start you on the search for the science behind the codes. Any time there is ANY electrical current, even microamps, and there is a liquid medium in contact with two different metallic compounds, you will get electrolysis. You have created a battery by connecting two different metals and touching them both with a liquid (presumably water). The less noble (weaker) metal will begin to lose a small amount of itself that will migrate to the more noble (stronger) metal. This transfer will eventually cause leaks.

I have attached the link to the Massachusetts State Building Code below.

http://www.mass.gov/bbrs/newcode.htm

As you can read, regardless of what you may believe or have enforced in your location, even small residential systems fall under the code book and all of your mechanical systems fall under IMC that I referenced in my previous post. Please read 780 CMR 36.11-14 for starters in regards to the code requirements of one and two family dwellings.

The vital thing to remember as well is that even if nothing is inspected, you are still liable for anything installed contrary to code. ignorantia legis non excusat. Jurisprudence is the principle being described. It means that one is bound by the law even if one does not know the law. I hate the thought of any reputable contractor being sued, but know that if you don't research the law (code) you can still be held liable for it if something goes wrong.

ScottMP

Mark

Mark, is this the text your refer to ?


3611.1.3 Application: In addition to the general
administration requirements of 780 CMR 1, the
provisions of 780 CMR 3611 - 780 CMR 3622 shall
apply; additionally, in the absence of specific criteria
set forth in such sections, the International
Mechanical Code, as listed in Appendix A shall
apply.

I have attempted To read the code that your refer to in the Mass code and find nothing about dialectics. I may have missed it but I assume you mean " In the abscence of ... "

I appreciate your knowledge of codes and would like to read the specific passage concerning Dia-electrics. I do not have a copy of IMC but will trya nd look it up.

thanks

Scott


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Ray Landry

Hello Ryan, any time a small mass mod con boiler is attached to an older system prone to lots of sediment a strainer should be used. I tpyically use a bronze mesh wye strainer. I've put in many of the GB boilers since they came out, probably at least 30 and I think they are great. Had lots of good luck.

Mark, what part of the country are you in? I don't think I've ever seen a diaelectric fitting installed on a closed loop hydronic system, and I've seen many. We use them all the time on potable water though. Never seen any problems with electoloysis from copper to iron joints. Would love to hear other's opinions on this but I've seen other installs from across the US posted here on this site from other wallies and never seen anyone use diaelectric fittings. Learn something new every day I guess.

LWCO's installed to a common header without shut off valves in between is an acceptable way to install this saftey device.

The buderus GB boiler is APPROVED by the Mass code body as well as MANY OTHERS while using the relief valve set up as shown above. Also, every buderus boiler, as well as many viessmans unitlize this same exact set up of having the relief valve on the supply header with no shut off valves in between.

Electrical bonding of the copper POTABLE water main is acceptable and very common, I'm not sure why you brought this up. Is this a method you do not agree with?

Mark Wolff_2

code reference

Yes, that is the one. There are two ways it can be interpreted, one being that only the administrative section of the IMC would apply as a suppliment to the 780 CMR 3611; the other being that 780 CMR 3611 is to establish the general scope of the mechanical system and equipment, and if there are any specific topics not covered by 780 CMR 3611 then the IMC in its totality could be referenced for those specific questions.

Obviously I believe the latter would apply, but once again, that is subject to interpretation.

For the record, I could find nothing in the Mass codes, whether plumbing or mechanical, that specifically referred to dielectric connections either. You are correct that I refer to it only through the reference to the "in the absence of specific criteria set forth... the International Mechanical code, as listed in Appendix A shall apply."

And once again, let me say, I meant no disrespect to you or your work by my comments. As I look back over my reply to you I do somewhat wince, and I am sorry for that. I do believe that you are a conscientious contractor and respect your posts on this site, but having seen first hand what can happen to extensive piping systems from electrolysis I sometimes get a little empassioned when I feel what I believe to be fundamental principles of workmanship are casually ignored or brushed aside.

ScottMP

Mark

Thanks for the responce. I will say that your first respoce came off a little "aggresive" hence my reply. No offence taken and none given, we are here to learn and you obviously have a good knowledge of the codes.

I also do not feel that codes are there to make our live's difficult but as you mention, So much of the codes are open to interpertation.

Are the references you make about Die-electrics directly talking about hydronic piping or do they refer to Domestic piping ?

Only as a point of discussion, I have installed hundreds of boilers in the last twenty years and Never used die-electrics. I have not seen any catastrophic failure of those systems. As we come across replacements of systems that are twenty to thirty years old I do not see corrosion on all connections from iron to copper.

If its in the code, its code. I just hav'nt seen it in the field.

Scott

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Mark Wolff_2

Both

The Uniform Plumbing Code references them for plumbing applications, and the International Mechanical Code references them for hydronic applications. In Massachusetts you would have to check with the BOCA code for the plumbing side.

Brad White_148

Massachusetts Plumbing Code

is entirely it's own, 248 CMR. The state Gas Code is NFPA-54 by reference (copyright issues brought that about, it used to be copied almost verbatim); plus there is a section on Massachusetts-only exceptions to NFPA-54.

BOCA is not used in MA for plumbing, which is not to say that some things are not similar. (We still use round pipe, pitch it to drain even, and still use water as part of the process. All of our faucets, both hot and cold, are on the Left as is the rest of the state. But I digress. Yes I am kidding.)

For heating, the BOCA National Mechanical Code 1993 is the referenced code, superceded only in some respects by 780 CMR Chapeter 28, which is mostly about air intakes...(over-simplification) and a few other things...