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Copper and Near Boiler Piping

Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,663
in THE MAIN WALL
Dialectric unions are not required on closed loop systems. The unions have a high failure rate on the gaskets and will cause a future problem...sooner, rather than later.

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Comments

  • Patrick Mullaney
    Patrick Mullaney Member Posts: 67
    Is it ever ok??

    Is there any circumstance that copper is ok in near boiler piping? It was mentioned to me it depended on the thickness of the copper.

    Thoughts for the pros?
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    for a steam boiler??

    never..

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  • David Sutton_6
    David Sutton_6 Member Posts: 1,079
    Copper?

    Is it being done??...Yup

    Is it right ??...Nope

    I use coper below the water line on returns to keep them clear and from rottng..
    But i would never use it above on supply piping


    David
  • Al Corelli_2
    Al Corelli_2 Member Posts: 395
    Even on a water boiler...

    unless it is a non-ferrous system, we use black iron for the near boiler piping, and then either pex or copper from there on.

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  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,321
    Add me to the list...

    Never.
  • Patrick Mullaney
    Patrick Mullaney Member Posts: 67
    Love this site

    Talked to someone today who told me if it was "K-Copper" then it was ok to do the near boiler piping with it.

    Guess I move on to the next guy.

    Thanks guys.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    the first time you put your little finger through ....

    a piece of copper foil pipe you immediately Know the answer to that question. that is why ,...you,... the homeowner, can help yourself by reading some of Dans books,visiting his Library or asking here at the Wall...or by helping someone else who has not had the advantage *~/:)

    we thank you too ...

    somehow i thought you were speaking of steam boilers...

    solly bout that.
  • Patrick Mullaney
    Patrick Mullaney Member Posts: 67
    Sanity check

    As a newbie, I just "needed" that sanity check on something that ran counter to everything I have read. That is why there are newbies in the world...
  • Al_19
    Al_19 Member Posts: 170


    Patrick,

    Black pipe/fittings allow movement in the threaded/screwed connections when the piping expands and contracts. Soldered copper fittings don't, so they twist and ultimately leak. The thickness of the copper really doesn't matter.
  • Mark Wolff_2
    Mark Wolff_2 Member Posts: 77
    What????

    On steam I totally agree, however...

    To say that copper is not to be recommended on a hot water boiler's near boiler piping is without basis. You do need to transition from the cast iron through a dielectric union or dielectric material(brass is allowed by plumbing and mechanical code), but from then on there is no reason to not use copper.

    The difference between different grades of copper pipe are solely based upon wall thickness, starting with DWV yellow stripe, then M red strip, then L blue stripe, then K green stripe. K copper will have a longer service life compared to L or M (DWV can only be used on plumbing drain waste and vent)but with a heating system properly designed and using correct flow rates for the size of tubing being used it will outlast most boilers (50 year warranty ring a bell?).

    I know this question was probably in reference to steam, but the way everyone jumped on the bandwagon, I figured someone better stick up for copper. If someone disagree's give me a good reason for it.
  • Garritt
    Garritt Member Posts: 27
    near boiler piping

    I have been working for a established in floor heating company in the Northwest United States. We have been using copper (type m or l, depending on the contracts) for years on glycol or water systems on the boiler loop as well as the injection and system loop. We have done commercial and residential snowmelt and in floor radiant systems. In fact, I prefer the copper right off the boiler compared to the black iron look. We do not use dialetric unions because they fail and it is on a closed system. Although we may have had more problems with solder joints in glycol systems, we elect to use them.

    I have NEVER heard of only using black iron on boiler systems, and eventhough I dont oppose to use black iron, I think copper is faster. Depending on the type of copper, you will loose some gpm on any loop (boiler, injection, or system), but otherwise, I prefer copper. In the past, my boss has upsized the piping to accomidate any size of copper.

    Cheers,

    PexRunner

  • Al_19
    Al_19 Member Posts: 170


    I'm sure all the posters would agree with you about copper, and the assumption is that the question was asked about steam piping.

    It's a question that's asked here often, always about steam.
  • Steve Minnich_3
    Steve Minnich_3 Member Posts: 42
    Why would you....

    Why would you need a dielectric union on a closed system? Oxygen needs to be present in order for there to be a problem, no??????

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  • Patrick Mullaney
    Patrick Mullaney Member Posts: 67
    Yes, for a Steam Boiler

    Steam is correct...sorry for not specifying - I have blinders on I have been so consumed lately....
  • Tom R.
    Tom R. Member Posts: 138
    Electrolysis

    > Why would you need a dielectric union on a closed

    > system? Oxygen needs to be present in order for

    > there to be a problem, no??????

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 410&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_



  • Tom R.
    Tom R. Member Posts: 138
    Electrolysis

    is the reason. To prevent electrolytic action between the dissimilar metals which deteriorates the less noble one. The dielectric union insulates them from direct contact. Electrolysis can occur with or without oxygen present.
  • Mark Wolff_2
    Mark Wolff_2 Member Posts: 77
    Dielectric's

    Yes they are.
    ***IMC section 1203.1.1 Joints between different piping materials. Joints between different piping materials shall be made with approved adapter fittings. Joints between different metallic piping materials shall be made with approved dielectric fittings or brass converter fittings.***
    Any time you have two dissimilar metals such as steel (cast iron or regular) and copper, they must be isolated to prevent electrolysis. Water is the transfer medium whether there is air present or not. If you don't like the gaskets on standard dielectric unions, brass unions or nipples are an acceptable replacement, or dielectric nipples (though I disagree with some regarding how they are truly a dielectric).
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