I Shoulda Seen It Coming

terry_5

hey tombig,I see your from the so side by the stickers on the boiler!

Tombig_2

Overfilling Steamer

We took out an old Kewanee steel firetube in a six flat and replaced it with a sized to the radiation Dunkirk sectional. I posted pics a week or so ago.Of course it's about half the size and can't handle the building condensate. First thought was a sidecar tank. How about a condensate receiver? While I'm perusing the Lost Art book I figured I'd let you guys chime in. Gut feeling is I need about 30-40 gal. acceptance without disrupting my water line. Thanks in advance.
Tom Goebig

Tombig_2

Overfilling Steamer

We recently replaced a Kewanee steel fire tube steam boiler with a Dunkirk CI sectional sized for the connected load. I posted pics last week. The steam mains aren't insulated yet but soon will be. I, of course, have an overfill problem with all the related symptoms. My first thought was a sidecar tank. What about a condensate receiver? I figured I'd toss this one out there for you guys while I refresh my memory from LAOSH. Thanks

Tom Goebig

Tombig_2

Before and after

Here's some B&A pics to help.

Tombig_2

Pics might help

Old and new: Notice the water line. Old is much higher. Dry returns.

Unknown

hey Tombig!

Long time no hear! After looking at the pixs, ur arms must be massive by turning all those fittings in tight spaces..
I have question about the reducing tee as steam will carry a lot of water into the system after crashing to the back end of it.. Hence, low water and too much feed water. I use the receicver tank system, much bigger unit than consaedae (sp) pump system... When are we gonna meet for Wolves hockey game?

terry_5

I solved this problem with the condensate pump by hoffman ,pretty expensive!

Unknown

returns

If you were to bring those returns straight down until you were below the water line before you turn horizontal, the horizontals will always be full of water.

As they are piped in the picture, they NOW define your "B" dimension (the lowest horizontal pipe in the return). They flood with water every time the boiler runs, unless the pressure never goes high enough to lift the water that high.

The tank would eliminate that specific problem, but so would repiping and controlling the pressure.

Noel

Tombig_5

Reply

Thanks for the replies. Noel, thanks for the tip on repiping the horizontal returns. It's operating on temperature averaging T-stat and return line aquastat and rarely sees much pressure but I'll repipe them anyway.

I've got a pretty good pitch back to the equalizer on the header and horizontal to the main so I don't think it's slugging much water into the main at normal water levels. We skimmed pretty extensively though it still might be surging a bit. The long main is about 170ft and the #67 LWCO with 101 feeder might be overcompensating on the fill. I hate to burden the owner with the added cost of a condensate reciever and feed pump for such a small building. Maybe a PS 800 electronic might help but I'm not sure about using a probe type LWCO as a primary control.

I've never piped a sidecar tank and I understand they're usually used for surge prevention. I was thinking if the problem was due the volume of building piping full of steam and condensate returning after shutdown, it would temper the water level rise when it all returns to the boiler. Am I right in thinking this?

That MM 101A is full port and feeds a lot of water on demand. I've got to spend some "bucket time" with this boiler on start up and cycling to see what's going on. I only monitored it for an hour or so on start up. For all I know someone opened the bypass feed valve for a while then closed it. Maybe a different LWCO and feed setup might do the trick. I'll keep y'all posted.

411, I'm a north sider but the job's at 79th and the lake.

Thanks for the help, TG

Boilerpro_5

Tom

> Thanks for the replies. Noel, thanks for the tip

> on repiping the horizontal returns. It's

> operating on temperature averaging T-stat and

> return line aquastat and rarely sees much

> pressure but I'll repipe them anyway.

>

> I've

> got a pretty good pitch back to the equalizer on

> the header and horizontal to the main so I don't

> think it's slugging much water into the main at

> normal water levels. We skimmed pretty

> extensively though it still might be surging a

> bit. The long main is about 170ft and the #67

> LWCO with 101 feeder might be overcompensating on

> the fill. I hate to burden the owner with the

> added cost of a condensate reciever and feed pump

> for such a small building. Maybe a PS 800

> electronic might help but I'm not sure about

> using a probe type LWCO as a primary

> control.

>

> I've never piped a sidecar tank and I

> understand they're usually used for surge

> prevention. I was thinking if the problem was due

> the volume of building piping full of steam and

> condensate returning after shutdown, it would

> temper the water level rise when it all returns

> to the boiler. Am I right in thinking this?

> That MM 101A is full port and feeds a lot of

> water on demand. I've got to spend some "bucket

> time" with this boiler on start up and cycling to

> see what's going on. I only monitored it for an

> hour or so on start up. For all I know someone

> opened the bypass feed valve for a while then

> closed it. Maybe a different LWCO and feed setup

> might do the trick. I'll keep y'all

> posted.

>

> 411, I'm a north sider but the job's

> at 79th and the lake.

>

> Thanks for the

> help, TG





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Boilerpro_5

Tom

> Thanks for the replies. Noel, thanks for the tip

> on repiping the horizontal returns. It's

> operating on temperature averaging T-stat and

> return line aquastat and rarely sees much

> pressure but I'll repipe them anyway.

>

> I've

> got a pretty good pitch back to the equalizer on

> the header and horizontal to the main so I don't

> think it's slugging much water into the main at

> normal water levels. We skimmed pretty

> extensively though it still might be surging a

> bit. The long main is about 170ft and the #67

> LWCO with 101 feeder might be overcompensating on

> the fill. I hate to burden the owner with the

> added cost of a condensate reciever and feed pump

> for such a small building. Maybe a PS 800

> electronic might help but I'm not sure about

> using a probe type LWCO as a primary

> control.

>

> I've never piped a sidecar tank and I

> understand they're usually used for surge

> prevention. I was thinking if the problem was due

> the volume of building piping full of steam and

> condensate returning after shutdown, it would

> temper the water level rise when it all returns

> to the boiler. Am I right in thinking this?

> That MM 101A is full port and feeds a lot of

> water on demand. I've got to spend some "bucket

> time" with this boiler on start up and cycling to

> see what's going on. I only monitored it for an

> hour or so on start up. For all I know someone

> opened the bypass feed valve for a while then

> closed it. Maybe a different LWCO and feed setup

> might do the trick. I'll keep y'all

> posted.

>

> 411, I'm a north sider but the job's

> at 79th and the lake.

>

> Thanks for the

> help, TG





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Boilerpro_5

Tom

How's the venting on the steam mains? If the system is venting slowly most of the condensate is formed close to the supply at start up and takes its sweet ole time returning back to the boiler. If you get the steam out to the end of the system quickly, the condensate starts returning real quick. From what I have seen, and others, that if the system is working correctly, boiler feed pumps are rarely needed unless there are A or B dimension issues.

Boilerpro

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Tombig_5

Vents

Hey there BP. How's life in windfarm country treatin' ya. I hear their going to add more towers.

I installed a Gorton #2 on the long main a couple years back and it heats up pretty quick. I didn't see the need to add a second. The short main still has the original Dole. I have some third floor rads near the end of tha long main I may need to drill and tap to add some vents. It's always been the coldest apt (6 flat) but they insulated the attic and added new windows this summer so I'm gonna wait and see. The long main travels it's first 100ft or so through a new garden apt. and the owner doesn't want to insulate it. The building piping and venting are unchanged from the oversized Kewanee so thats why I was thinking condensate volume. I'm going to babysit it a bit before I do any thing drastic. Good to hear from you.

Steamhead (in transit)

100 foot main?

I think it needs more venting. What pipe size is it?

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Tombig_5

Correction...150-170 ft main

Hey FW,

Yeah, the boiler is in a rear corner of the basement and and the long main basically circumferences the building. Actually the short main branches off the long one about 12ft away from the boiler to handle the rear rads. The Kewanee firetube piped out of the top of the steam dome with the single 4 inch so it really has only one main leaving the boiler room. I piped the new Dunkirk with two four inch risers to the 4" main. It's hard to tell what the old boiler fired at. It was atmospheric w/110V GV and air damper. My connected load was just under 1500 sf and the new boiler is 700Mbtu. I spent a lot of time the last couple years nursing the old boiler, adding some temperature controls, and addressing venting issues at the mains and radiators. On startup everything was fine but it was late and we had a couple days of hard piping so we didn't hang around to watch. The next day I had one of my guys go back and TSP,flush,skim,etc. A week later it's flooded and banging.

If I've got to go back and revent the mains and rads to exist with the new boiler so be it. It makes more sense than adding a feed pump.

Boilerpro_5

Does sound like its needs more cleaning

I am a little concerned about the bullhead tee at the takeoff/ header drain and there not being much pipe between the last boiler supply and the take off. However, if the boiler is clean, there won't be much,if any carry over, with those big pipes on a little boiler like that. I have a 400 and 500 in with just a single riser and both work nicely, so a 700 with two tappings should work great....only 350,000 into each 4 inch tapping is real slow steam velocity.
The wind has really been blowing out here lately.

Boilerpro

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Tombig_5

Startup

> I am a little concerned about the bullhead tee at

> the takeoff/ header drain and there not being

> much pipe between the last boiler supply and the

> take off. However, if the boiler is clean,

> there won't be much,if any carry over, with those

> big pipes on a little boiler like that. I have a

> 400 and 500 in with just a single riser and both

> work nicely, so a 700 with two tappings should

> work great....only 350,000 into each 4 inch

> tapping is real slow steam velocity. The wind

> has really been blowing out here

> lately.

>

> Boilerpro

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 393&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Tombig_5

Startup

Thanks Dave, I probably didn't spend enough time with it and possibly jumped the gun with my conclusions. You know I will monitor the situation. I'll kep you posted. This is my first steamer in a year and we all need to keep learning. I assume that I downfired the system considerably though I'm not sure really. Do you think the venting will be affected drastically? A quick walk thru tells me things just aren't what they were. I had some G#4 vents on small bath rads that may now not be getting hot at all.

I won't be able to walk thru till next week and I'll keep you posted.

TG

TG