Latent Heat Extraction

Clif

Here is an interesting article in the Salt Lake Tribune about a building owner using the building sewer as the basis for heating the building.

I thought about Mark Eatherton when I read the article.

Here is the link: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_4602892

kevin coppinger_4

my only thought...

is where is the pipe?...inside or outside the sewer...will it clog the sewer line at some point? kpc

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Ken_40

And, of course...

We would need to determine the R-value of toilet paper (;-o)

Christian Egli_2

My poop leaves my body at 98.5 F, but I let it go

We bury pipes below ground, below the frost line so that they may not freeze.

Freezing a pipe is terrible, it happens enough all of the time that makes me think keeping sewer lines at a nice 55F is perfect for safety. Ever had sewer back ups?

Agreed, I've personally never seen a sanitary sewer back up because of frost, but I have seen frozen storm sewers not do their thing. I think there is a big risk of causing sanitary sewer clogs if you start putting the cold loop of a geothermal system into them. Don't tell me either it can't happen, buried geothermal systems freeze over all the time.

Plus, what's the amount of energy to be harnessed here? It sounds attractive, but consider that the precious heat we pour down the drain comes from the hot water heater and considering that the water heater amounts for only a small part of our winter energy usage, sewer lines don't sum up to the heat you'd get off a lava flow.

If on the other hand, you simply plan on harnessing the heat of the earth through the already installed sewer piping because you are too cheap to buy a dedicated coil network, then I think you're also too cheap to worry about the damage a frozen sewer line causes when it backs up. Maybe this is why lawyers are already involved in this idea.

Lastly, consider what energy savings are to be found in the whole sewer water treatment process.

1) We temper the water we pour down the drain, it leaves our homes with a small carryon baggage of heat. Fine. At least grease won't congeal in the pipes.

2) Poop merrily floats down the way at the cozy temperature of the warm underground earth, blissfully unaware of what awaits at the sewer treatment plant.

3) Where the pipe emerges from the ground, it splashes into a large swimming pool where piranha like bugs avidly wait for the little treats we send them. Because we care, these pools are... heated. Sewer water is actually heated, or reheated, at the treatment plant. It's expensive, but it's the price to pay for happy fish.

So then, globally... where would you save energy by first cooling the sewer water before having to reheat it all at the treatment plant?

But perhaps I'm cold hearted and our lovely digester bugs should be entitled to eating fresh food, as in poop kept chilled, the same way we get our perishables from the grocery store. Next time, pack some ice cubes before you flush - because bugs are people too. They're just lucky they're not cute and furry.

Cosmo_3

Uh, hey Man

I could hear the "Twilight Zone" theme music in the backround as I read your post..........


Cosmo

rumn8r

I wanna know...

Just exactly ow it is that you know to the tenth of a degree what your fecal temperature is...

On second thought... NEVER MIND!!

I've gotten the temperature of a lot of things, but never fecal matter.

As for potential of waste heat recovery, I am familiar with a company (Major Geothermal) that has in fact extracted heat from a sewage lagoon and heated and cooled condominiums with it. They called th eloop field the "poop loop" Seriously.

I also have plans in my head for a solar powered car wash and solar powered laundromat with WSHP waste heat recovery that would not have a utility gas connection, and whose energy bills would be less than half that of a conventionally operated system.

If you can imagine it, it can be done.

Interestingly enough, we were contact by a city council member from Hiram Utah that is interested in heating their sewage treatment facilties offices etc utilizing the "free" heat in the incoming effluent. Or would that be influent...

In any case, it is and has and can be done. Its just a matter of tight control. You don't want to make poop sickles. Just slightly chilled...

Thanks for thinking of me Cliff. HOw's life in Estonia?

Here's something to make you home sick ;-)

ME

Clif

GREAT Panorama!

Hi Mark!

Is anyone doing any research into the payback if it was scaled up in a major way? If some of the latent heat was recovered on the way to the sewage treatment facilities, instead of allowing most of the heat to be picked up the ground surrounding the piping on its way to the plant.

That is a GREAT view that you have!! It does make me a bit homesick as I do miss the mountains. The Baltic Sea is only about a 10 minute drive away, but mostly Estonia is flat. The hightest "mountain" in the Baltics is right at 1000 feet and is located in southern Estonia near the Latvian border.

I hope that you and your family are doing well!

rumn8r

The view...

was taken from across the lake up on Blue Ridge, looking towards Vail. That is the Eagles Nest/Gore Range primitive area. Your Grand folks place would have been to the lower right hand side of the picture.

As for waste heat recovery research, and as it pertains to robbing sewerage heat, not to my knowledge as it pertains to the article. The biggest technical problem I can see would be having a heat exchanger with the ability to transfer a WHOLE lot of btu's in a very short time frame and over a relatively short distance.

These systems (car/laundromat) that I'm envisioning would actually have heat exchanger vaults that would hold the sewerage temporary until the heat can be robbed and transfered to the incoming stream, then pumped down once cooled. It is technically feasible, just a matter of getting ahold of the right people at the right time in the initial design phase of a project.

I have worked on direct exchange systems used in commercial laundrys for hotels and such, and those systems have been around for ever. It's just a matter of thinking outside the box and applying currently available off shelf technology to the appropriate situation.

Here's a view of the falls at Cataract that very few people have seen...

Call me the next time you're in town.

ME

Clif

Eagles Nest

Hi Mark!

I thought that it had to be Eagles Nest/Gore Range Primitive Area, just had never seen the view from that high viewpoint. Great photos, thanks for sharing them. Also, great photo of Cataract Lake and Falls. I've seen some strange looking trees north of my hometown of Vernal, Utah, BUT that is one for the recordbooks! Is that close to your cabin?

We hope to visit the US next summer. Maybe we could meet at the Green Mountain Inn. Did you ever find my business card in your mailbox?

Clif

rumn8r

The trees...

are up on top of Blue Ridge. A strange section about 1/4 mile long where there are a BUNCH of trees bent just like that. I'm thinking earth quake damage. We are now recognized as being in a major earthquake fault zone. One way or another, I WILL end up with beach front property.:-)

As a matter of fact, I did find your card. I was up at Cataract with some friends. Really sorry we missed you. For sure, let's set a date and I WILL be there.

Look forward to meeting you and your parents Clif.

Here's something I know your dad would enjoy...

ME

rumn8r

The trees...

are up on top of Blue Ridge. A strange section about 1/4 mile long where there are a BUNCH of trees bent just like that. I'm thinking earth quake damage. We are now recognized as being in a major earthquake fault zone. One way or another, I WILL end up with beach front property.:-)

As a matter of fact, I did find your card. I was up at Cataract with some friends. Really sorry we missed you. For sure, let's set a date and I WILL be there.

Look forward to meeting you and your parents Clif.


ME

Clif

It's a Date!

We haven't decided for sure whether we are traveling to the US next summer, but it is a definite probable :-) We will probably spend about 4 weeks with my parents, so we will make a weekend trip up to Kremmling and environs during that time. It will be good to finally meet and swap some stories about the old days.