Vitodens install, great machine, weak install and rep

PM_2

This is a sketch of the way the installer piped our new Vitodens. All pumps running, all valves open, radiant floor is cold, everything left of the header is cold. I know what is wrong, but the installer didn't see anything wrong and the Viessmann rep thought that moving the T's closer together would solve the problem. Am I wrong to be upset?

PS The installer kept arguing with me about the need for a LWCO even though the boiler is on the second floor and all of the radiation is in the first. Finally, he put it in. Didn't wire it, but it's there. I'm wiring it tomorrow.

ALH_4

flow

Well obviously the radiant loops are just going in circles and there is no flow through the LLH on the secondary side. Either you need to add a pump or re-pipe the secondary side. Personally, I would re-pipe so the returns from the zones are both going straight into the LLH. You don't want return water from the first zone mixing with the supply for the other zone. Flow switches are better than LWCO for a low mass boiler. Everyone involved should know better than to pipe any system like this.

-Andrew

Paul Pollets

RTFI

The installation instructions clearly illustrate at least 5 different piping versions, depending upon how many mixed temps you need, and/or the DHW tank. If these instructions are follwed, the system works every time. Well, almost every time, if you've coded the computer correctly.

I presume one of the system pumps has a 3 way mixing valve, otherwise, it a waste of a pump. Go back to the piping schematics provided by Viessmann...follow them, and all will be well.

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Perry_2

Should I say Good Grief - or Thanks

As another homeowner - but an educated one I have two responses.

1) Good Grief... Ahh... Where do these people get their ideas from...

2) Thanks - for showing that my problems finding a contractor to install a Vitodens were minor compared to yours... (sorry to say).


Perry

S Ebels

Two options and a suggestion

1: You can leave the piping the way it is and add a third circ between the LLH and the first zone circ. It should circ counterclockwise looking at your drawing. This has the disadvantage of A: an additional circ and B: the second zone would be getting a lower water temp than the first zone. Could be a problem, I can't tell from here. Oh, in addition, both the zone circs will need flow checks on them in any case to prevent unwanted flow in the "off" zone. The installers pri/sec spacing is plenty wide unless you have 3" copper coming off the LLH. Recommended tee spacing is 4 pipe diameters.

2: This is what I would do seeing as how you have two circs anyhow. Cut off the pipe on the left of your drawing that connects the guzinta to the guzouta and cap the two pipes. You would now have just a "stub" from the system supply and the system return. You would then move the return from each zone to the system return on the LLH which is the bottom pipe. This will supply each of your zones with the same temp, assuming that's what your system needs of course and eliminate the need for the third circ.

Given the fact that the Vitodens manual contains schematics for piping and wiring practically any scenario, I have to assume that your installer is one of the following.

A: Incapable of reading

B: Incapable of comprehending pictures

C: Is either so ignorant or maybe arrogant that he assumed the manual couldn't teach him anything he didn't already know so he never opened it.


We all make mistakes but this really displays a complete lack of comprehension in the basics of hydronics. Where did he think the water was going to go? Please try and explain water flow to him..........on second thought, maybe it's not worth it. Just make him do it right.

[Deleted User]

That is FUNNY...

Siggy ought to put that into his "How NOT to plumb a hydronic heating system" chronicles.

"Well, I THINK that's how its sposed to be plummed..."

ME

Weezbo

seems we have been here ......it is like dejavu

the last time though it was far less self explanitory and was something of a pretty good challange....

it did not have a typical piping arrangement... that is what makes thinking which one of a miryad of valves and pumps actually gets any heat into the equation ,fun....this one though is too easy.
do not be upset...give it time ... he who does not weary shall overcome....a few valves a temp gage a no kink two more 'T's and your good for the go.
i like temp gages its helpful when diagnosing problems.

Leo G_99

Steve,

may I make one other suggestion? Instead of capping the ends of the gozinto/gozoutta, how about a pressure differential be put into that space?

Leo G

S Ebels

???

I'm not following you. If the returns are moved to the lower tapping on the LLH, what would a differential bypass do in that location? Are you refering to plan A utilizing a third circ?

Constantin

Well,

on the bright side, you have all the parts you need for a good system. Just chop out the primary loop, hook up the supplies and the returns as suggested by the manual or Steve, an you're done.

Given how clear the manual is on how to install a Vitodens with a LLH, I am amazed that the installer and the rep got it wrong.

hr

It could be an honest mistake...

That's a common piping for some boiler applications. It shouldn't be too hard to correct. I suspect the installer is new to low loss header piping. No need to roast him here, he's probably a nice guy like the rest of us.

Mistakes have made me the installer I am today

hot rod

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PM_2

My dismay is that the Viessmann rep was standing there with the installer and I when I asked "what makes water flow from the header to the circs?" The answer was "because it does", even though at that moment, it clearly wasn't.

Is it routine to hand out manufacturer's rep territories in packs of baseball cards?

By the way how many of you guys out there "don't do wiring"? We had to hire an electrician to wire the boiler, circs, relay boxes etc.

PM_2

One temp, outdoor reset via boiler. No DHW. No mixing valves, the drawing is complete except for isolation valves, water feeder and expansion tank.

PM_2

Hot Rod

I'd have a beer with this guy any time. This is his first mod/con, promised to do it just like the book says. He had the Viessmann rep there for the first firing just to be sure.

My frustration is the lack of effort in trying to understand what is going on. This guy sees his service as just providing thoughtless labor.

I was not pleased when I found the flue vented out the side wall right next to the boiler instead of the roof as I asked. The reason: the supply house sent an elbow. Now it drips right in front of the front door. That will be nice here in New England this winter.

Paul Pollets

1 pump

Only one pump is required on the system side of the LLH. The pump should be sized for GPM flow rates, per the design.

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Paul Pollets

Complete package

Anyone playing with mod-cons should be trained in the wiring. These boilers are 30% computer and require a LV skillset. Unfortunately, some contractors are not aware of the "new complexity" of these appliances. Electricians can also have problems wiring, because of their unfamiliarity of the system.

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PM_2

We've repiped it so the pumps are fed from the top port of the header and the returns enter the bottom. The Ts and far left piping have been removed. Works great now.

jp_2

what you really need,

Is a machine tool electrician, a residential electrician will only scratch his head. not to be degrading, these are just machines and not houses.

lots of picture i've seen here show the need for a machine tool ele, they know how to do wiring art work.

Leo G_99

yes

I was. I didn't quite get what you said at first, but now see where you are coming from!

Leo G

S Ebels

Didn't catch that part.....

The part regarding the rep.............

The rep's we usually see from about any maker fall more into the sales category than the technical side of the biz. They are often stuck between a rock and a hard place also, not wanting to offend or put down their customer (the contractor) while trying to make the best of a bad situation in fron of his (the contractors) cutomer.

Assuming that he is a sales rep, his ignorance of the situation is somewhat excusable. Still, if he cracked the manual, and knows the simple law that says high pressure goes to low,......what can you say?

I understand your angst with those involved, however, give them a chance to fix it and make it right. Lord knows, I've made at least my alloted share of mistakes. The difference between a good and a worthless contractor is how they handle the mistakes they have made. Yours is easy to fix.

S Ebels

Glad to hear

Glad to hear things are sorted out. You'll enjoy the reliability and efficiency of that boiler for a long time to come.

PM_2

Amen

I used to be a machine designer and the difference in skill and attention to detail is staggering. I'll take a pic of this panel when I finish with it. I don't think our subs have ever seen wire label.

Paul Pollets

Rep Training

All of Viessmann's sales reps must go through intensive product training. It's even more detailed than what the contractor gets in a seminar....

I like your line..."The difference between a good and a worthless contractor is how they handle the mistakes they have made.." Amen

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jp_2

I too,

I did controls design for about 6 yrs, service tech for 10 yrs.

for the hydronics system I'm working on now, I am considering using a small PLC for all the control, as long as i can find a reasonable priced unit that can read thermocouples.

PM_2

New developments

While I did my best to keep this sort of thing anonymous, one of the 2 or 3 people in the world that could connect the dots did. After we spoke, I'm better informed and a bit wiser.

The rep did understand what was going on and saw the flaws clearly, but held his tongue a couple of times in deference to the installers feelings. I mistook that for not understanding. To be fair, the info provided to me by the rep when we were alone was on the ball. I suppose I'd do the same thing if I did that job on a daily basis.

To those (the rep) accused in my moments of bravado, I'm sorry. I was uninformed.

PM_2

Please see New Developments below

S Ebels

Ah.......yah

See my comments above regarding the rep being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Again, glad it's resolved.

hr

So...

you knew the piping was wrong, and the rep knew the piping was wrong. Why bring it here instead of working it out with the 3 of you on the jobsite? I'm not clear on your motivation?

hot rod

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GW

yo PM

I'm just logging onto the wall tonight to sob about my pre-paid oil I committed to at $2.59, but what gives? Did you hire the cheap guy and now you're wondering why he's not an A-class installer? In my past life I’ve dealt with people that insisted on paying sub-par fees… are you one of those people? Can you share with everyone your system of hiring a heating guy and what the percentage in difference of the costs was? Perhaps an unsuspecting home owner may learn from this debacle and see that cheap guys cost more than the real guys. Something doesn’t add up here; don't beat up on the cheap guy. An experienced guy would have known better.

Gary


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jp_2

funny

i have to laugh ALL the time when the HO gets pee'd on for not hiring the 'pro'.

so how does the HO come about so knowledgable that they can weed out the sub standard heating guys? Are you saying this trade is so easy that a HO can become an expert in a matter of days? or are you saying that the high bidder is ALWAYS the best?

DanHolohan

When there's a post like this one,

I always give a heads up to someone up high at the manufacturer. I did that this morning when you first posted. Glad you got it worked out.

GW

hello

I'm not sure if my post will hit a nerve or not. I was just trying to bring to light a new way to view this entire subject.

I agree. It's just miserable for the ho to know, but let's be real, in today's world pleading "I didn't know" after hiring the cheap guy is carrying less and less merit with all the information that's out there.

Most people that drop a 10 spot (or whatever this job cost) normally would spend at least 30 minutes doing some background checks on the heating guy (I'm guessing... might I be wrong on this?). If I was Joe HO, I would call the local vendors to see if I get a grunt or a thumbs up. I would call the local Viessmann rep and get their top 3 or 4 guys, and I would ask if I could call the guy that the heating contractor installed the same system for and see how he liked the installation process.

No one is perfect; we certainly pull off our share of bone-heads. But really, there's not much excuse for this in my very humble opinion.

GW

Folks up high

Dan, I'm glad you did that. There should be some better way to "cross the river" when the installation is bad. For example, instead of keeping quiet and thereby giving the system a silent thumbs up, might it be better to say to the challenged heating guy, "hey Jack, grab that manual, can we just step outside for a minute?"

Let's be real, when the rep glosses over the sub-par work by saying nothing right then and there he just dove right into the crux of the matter (that's the nicest way i could phrase it...), and the good name of Viessmann takes a hit, or whoever the manufacturer may happen to be.

Are reps afraid of hurting feelings or something? Wouldn't it be ironic if a rep got canned because he didn't want to hurt cheap guys feelings.

jp_2

you know?

you seem so sure the installer was the "cheap guy"

please explain how you know this?

GW

just a guess

am I right or wrong?

Constantin

Looks like...

... the rep knew what the problem was but didn't want to embarrass the installer (see below). In my mind, that is a tactical mistake on his part, see what it did to his standing in the eyes of the homeowner.

Now, we also have only heard one side of the story and we're not here to burn anyone at the stake. Yet, as an installer or homeowner, I would prefer the straight scoop when it comes to identified problems. One can only improve one's performance when good guidance is given...

Constantin

There is no way to know...

... unless you've worked with the guy before and have first-hand knowledge of how he works. Even then, life's little emergencies can have a nasty way of mucking things up on an indivdual job.