Press Fittings Part 2

J.C.A._3

Now that's impressive ! Nice job brother! Chris

Ron Huber

Press fittings 2

OK you guys, no way I'm gettin mucked up in a 137 post thread, so heres my opinion and take it for what it is worth. Have been using press fittings for 4 years, ream the inside ends of the pipe with our Rigid pipe prep machine reamer, brush a little of the outside of the pipe with the brush attachement (just a little to get any crud off) and press the damn fitting. No leaks, ever with glycol or water, never had to press a fitting more than once. We have jobs with as many as 34 zones(residential) and use 1/2" through 2" fittings. So maybe it has something to do with the pipe itself or the preperation or lack of it, and as far as old school goes, old school is not always right, we have this thing called progress, or is it Pro Press?

Ken_40

With all that fiber-glass insulation....

how would you ever know (;-o)

Oddly, the only pipes not hidden under insulation, are soldered, not press. Why; so the press fitting leaks wouldn't show?

The job, nonetheless is an outstanding demonstration of how beautifully us Yanks can, and do, install the euro-stuff, despite all its shortcomings...(;-0)

One serious question: Given the added dimensions and girth of a pressed fittings, what kind of challenges are you facing when installing f.g. insulation? Hell, standard sweat fitings can be an issue with shape and tension, adding another 1/16+", full circumference, has to be a minor but annoying factor, no?

DanHolohan

Nice job, Ron

You should be in Find a Professional.

S Davis

Question

Ron,

It looks to me from your picture that you do a nice installation and take pride in your work, now let me ask you a question, how would you feel if you did that install and within a year the fittings were showing leaks, your customer is not happy and wants the piping redone, you contacted your rep and are shot back a letter and warrenty denial stating the leaks are normal and you are on your own to deal with the problem and customer?


S Davis

Al Corelli

Maybe...

Maybe it is not fiberglas insulation. It could be Pipe Diapers.

Yep, that's my new product for glycol/press combos. Pipe Diapers. Now, none of you steal my idea!!!

That is some seriously nice work there. Very impressed. (no pun intended.)

jvw

PRO PRESS/ VIEGA

After reading the numerous post on this subject. I felt compelled to state the following. As of yesterday we have installed more than 7,000 fitting as made by Viega/Rigid and have not had one failure due to the product, but have had a few problems when my employees get lazy or we forgot to check the jaws or maintain the machine. We have literally install miles of pipe in commerical building with no problems. Next week we start another job with 4" and down in size total amount of copper type l will exceed 88,000 lbs, two trailer loads plus. I will be using pro press, only wish they made 3 and 4" valves. The above system will be installed in 1100 man hours, 40 feet high, with 162 2" drops try doing that scope of work in that time frame with soldered joints. Net results read the instructions before you start and you will be able to wheel the dollars to the bank. Today I decided to visit a few jobs that where done over 2 years ago that have freeze inhibited, Found 2 stains out of approx 300 joints

[Deleted User]

Did this actually happen to you Stacy?

I went back and looked at a few glycoled jobs we've done over the last few years with Propress, and saw no evidence of leaks. Were you using foreign tubing?

Just curious.

ME

S Davis

Pipe

Mark,

Yes this is one of my jobs, there are two brands of copper pipe one made in the USA one made in Mexico and leaks are showing up on both, what type of glycol was it in your systems? this job has a allumminum block boiler and has Cryotek 100AL at a 30% mix.



S Davis

S Davis

Instructions

Joe,

I have been in the heating trade since 88 and have been specializing in hydronic heating since 93, I am not stupid and can and do read the directions of products I use and did follow the installation instructions of the Viega fittings.


S Davis

DanHolohan

Joe,

the rep's statement that these leaks are normal would concern me. Would you agree?

Maine Ken

Sounds like two leaks. Two too many for me.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DanHolohan

I mean,

shoe's on your foot. Would you accept that answer?

Harold

From time to time I get the feeling that maybe a poster is defining leaks somewhat differently than is addressed by this thread. Except for some threaded components, this is not dripping, running, spurting fluid leaks with puddles on the floor.

It is leaking in small amounts that generate surface corrosion/staining on the copper at the joints. There are a lot of joints in my, essentially unused, system doing this. A primary issue for me is that it looks like crap and very non-professional. It matters to me. A commercial installation, and maybe non-descriminating residential systems, may well ignore the result.

Those of you reporting years of no problem, consider this definition.

I also have a really hard time believing that this is not a preview of ongoing problems. Big leaks are little leaks that have had an opportunity for career development.

Vendor response that this is normal has scared me a lot. Their literature says no leaks. 50 year gaurantee. I looked at all of this before I allowed the materials to be used in my system. I define a leak to be when something that should be inside shows up outside. This is not a confusing concept. The manufacturer does not stipulate that they warrant the fittings from leaking really seriously; but not just a little.

Short recap - they have said this leakage is normal. They knew about it before we complained. They do not disclose this little fact. It was installed in accordance with the manufacturers specifications. It's fundamentaly broken. The vendor has provided no further useful information on this site.

S Ebels

I'm trying to think.......

If I have ever seen ANY type of pipe/fitting system containing glycol which has not showed traces of Green splooge around the joints. Sweat, threaded, other mechanical systems such as Victaulic.......Can't recall a single one that did not have some weeping going on except a welded steel setup that was a work of art. Even that one had issues by some of the valves and circs.

On the other hand, for a manufacturer to claim that evaporation around the fitting joints is "normal" stretches my boundaries of acceptance. If indeed all the fittings on that job are seeping, I would have to say something was amiss in the assembly process. We have a few here and there which I attribute to debris in the fitting or a nick in an o-ring. None where the whole job is showing signs of it.

If it were me, I would be giving Viega some time to address the situation. I'm sure we have their attention here.

Ken_40

Although one in 150

sounds okay; I'm not sure by what "standard" I would feel comfy saying that.

Should we be thankful for 2 out of 300 (after only 2 years) or should we be concerned?

Since I have not used this method, I am pretty confident, my/our soldered joints are better, but have yet to look at any in this new and much "stronger and critrical" light...

Floyd

Amen....

I'm with ya Steve.... just can't belive the feeding frenzy goin' on here. I just can't belive that something didn't go haywire with that job... it will take TIME to figure out what went wrong....I have to agree it sure stinks when it happens to you though... been there, done that, learned from it..... hopefully we can ALL learn from this, but gee whiz, let's give Viega time to get it sorted out correctly and not go off here half cocked....

Floyd

DanHolohan

In fairness,

they have all the time in the world, Floyd. There's no timetable. And I don't think this is a feeding frenzy. It's just people having a conversation, both sides being well heard.

Ron Huber

investigation

I would try to find out how widespread the problem is (The Wall is a good place to start) Judging from the post, most of the negative talk is coming from guys who never used the fittings? so I would be talking to the guys who have and find out what the percentage of failures are. Glycol does some pretty weird stuff to fittings and packings. Does everybody go after Nicbco, Hammond and other valve manufactures when the stains show up on the outside of the valves packings? Has this weeping been so bad that you've lost pressure in the system, puddles on the floor? Hopefully we will get to the bottom of this problem with a definitive answer and put this to rest. Hopefully you can convince your customer to bear with you until that happens and not panick and go to the extreme of making you change the piping. Good Luck

Ron Huber

Pipe insulation

Hey Ken, thats the new Euro type pipe insulation thats good to 250 degrees and 200 PSI!! The only pipe not insulated was the one the plumber put in for the DHW expansion tank. The fiberglass elbows use a high temp soft fiberglass(like batt insulation) with the pvc jacket outer shell. We also use ureathane and the elbows and 45's easily compress over the ridge of the press fittings.

Ken_40

Missed point...

You could not see a "stained/leaking" fitting whether it was euro or Martian, once its insulated.

No wonder it doesn't leak. If you can't see the leak; there is none...

Right (:-(

Perry_2

I'm on Harold's side & What is a Leak

As both another homeowner, and an plant engineer who maintians substaintial quantities of piping and tube joints... I believe that Harold has a very valid point - and a reasonable request.

I do understand the concept of debating what a leak is (see below) - but at a very basic level: If you can see visual evidence of leakage - you have leakage.

There are certified experts out there who make jugdments on if something is leaking or not. In the case of a pressure vessel - or ASME Section XI piping (some piping inspection and repair is controlled like pressure vessels) - I cannot immagine trying to get a National Board of Pressure Vessels "Authorized Inspector" (AI) to agree that the fittings described in these two threads were not leaking. I would not even present the concept to them. They tend to expect us to understand on our own what is and is not a leak. As best it would be rather embarrasing (and I have dealt with AIs in steam propulsion on ships - to various fossil power plants and with a heat exchanger company).

It would be more than embarassing - and likely carrear limiting in my current job to even suggest the idea that these fittings are not leaking to a NRC inspector (and they are free to inspect - and do inspect - any system in the plant even if it has nothing to do with the nuclear side or even power generation: Are we appropriately maintianing the plant in good condition). The plant might keep me arround - but not in my current position. I'd most likely be shuffled off to the central office where I would never again have to talk to a NRC inspector - if they didn't shuffle me direectly to the unemployment line.

So what is a leak? Yes, in theory - and in practice - all mechanicall joints "leak" unless sealed with an appropriate sealent. The joint may be leaking at a level that only extreemly sensitive laboratory equipment may detect - but the leak is there. One of the reasons helium is used for leak detection of critical systems is that its really good at seeping through cracks and crevaces (and even slowly seeps directly through many solid metals).

So, on an extreely small scale - all O-Ring joints leak. I think the Mfr has some engineer who knows that and their QA and Warrantee department has picked up on it and determined then that they can use that as a legal reason to deny the claim of any leaks. Sorry, it don't work that way. The pressure vessel and comercial piping industries have adopted codes and standars that have their own interpretation of what a leak is. Over 20 years of experience dealing with these inspectors leads me to the conclusion that these joints leak.

While you can never totally assume what a court would rule - I believe that all Harold, or someone like him, has to do is sue the Mfr and installer - and put these certified inspectors as witnesses on the stand... I suspect that the judge and any jury would find these people's definitions of what a leak is to be the "legal standard" (and their may already be such rullings, many states have adopted ASME standards and National Board Standards, B31 Piping Standards, etc) - and the mfr and installer at fault. Claiming that the piping is not built to those standards does not help - as the key in this case is "what is a leak" - and their exist a good body of standards on what a leak is.

I am not a lawyer - and you would need to consult one (and one that specializes in technical issues); but I would want to be arguing that these fittings are not leaking - or that it is acceptable for some of the fittings in an installation to be leaking.

From a business perspective of the vendors using the system. I understand the reasons why you would use such a system - and the ballance between winning bids that keep you in business. Tough call, I hope you have adequte insurance to cover such issues - or that you are at least aware of and accept the risk.

The previous thread had a discussion on silver solders. Their are many different forumlations of silver solder. When I learned to use it several decades ago their was "Grade 1" to "Grade 5" from on mfr - with Grade 5 having the most silver. I havn't used it since and am aware that more brands and alloy options have appeared.

Thus, the comments on how poorly or how well it works is probably related to which silver solder alloy was used. I am quite confident that their are silver solder alloys that will work very well for the application and will not leach over time either. I hope you all figure out which one.

Have a great day, and hope this helps the discussion.


Perry

Tony_23

Definitions

This sounds like the infamous statement, "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is."

I think if I want to save time and money I have two choices, MultiCor and "old school". At least with solder I'm sure of the reliability.

ALH_4

Litigation

I see no reason to sue the installing contractor unless the installation method was to blame for the leaks, and then only if the contractor would not make a good faith effort to resolve the problem to everyone's satisfaction. It seems fairly clear to me in this situation the contractors are not to blame.

Viega needs to resolve this, not only to put these threads to rest, but also to determine if this is the tip of the iceberg. Though these seem to be somewhat isolated incidents right now, the last thing they want is a class action lawsuit, similar to what happened with entran tubing. I have to think Viega (as well as other manufacturer's of press fittings) wants to determine what is going on before there is a general perception that press fittings leak. Whether these are truly "leaks" or not is irrelevant. The perception that these are leaks is all that matters in the long run.

-Andrew

hvacfreak

Give it away....

I am sure that we have all had projects that ended with an unhappy customer. At that point , you have 2 choices...
1 ) Make things happen the way the customer wants it to..or

2 ) Move on to the next one. This may mean many things...going to court , not getting paid , ...or getting paid and having a perpetual bad word of mouth.

There has been more than enough discussion on this subject , and I have to say that the manufacturer has fallen on thier face . The correct course of action would have been to IMMEDIATLEY resolve this situation ( manufacturer rep , BEFORE it became this big discussion here ). Pay the contractor ( or work with him ) to take that stuff out of that mans home and re-pipe it ( I feel you missed the boat on even questioning the installation correctness ). I have given jobs away before , and I know others here have too.

I am a big , big fan of two companies...Trane commercial and B&G ( or at least my local reps ). I was working on a project where both missed a " class H motor insulation spec " on all inverter - duty motors. 15 LARGE base mounted pumps , 25 LARGE roof top AHU's , ETC. The customer beat on all of us during the 2 year warranty period ( about many other things )...I know for a fact that we all lost money. Trane and B&G never refused service , and didn't try to hide anything. We asked the customer if they would accept the " class F inverter duty " motors that were provided , and even got the VFD manufacturers blessing...they said no...and we ( mech contractor , B&G techs , Trane techs ) changed them. Biting the bullet sucks , no better word for this.

The business that were in ( HVAC , Plumbing , Mechanical , whatever ) is really cut and dry. I have no working knowledge of this product , and the way I see this being handled , it will be quite some time before I do. At the end of the day , it either works or it dosen't. There are some " Grey " areas ( or " Green " in this case , LOL ) , but if it don't hold water...giveitaway , givitaway , giveitaway now...LOL. Good luck to all - hvacfreak

Ron Huber

right on the noggin Kenny

You dont see the leak, so it aint there, end of story.That is our first press fitting job from 4 years ago, floor is clean as a whistle, no air in the system and no callbacks for leaks.

Floyd

I think...

you and I have a very different opinion of that.
That's all I'll say, don't want to get in trouble.

Floyd

S Davis

Liability

Perry,

I am on harold's side as well and the last thing I want is a unhappy customer or my name attached to a job that looks like this, as for being sued if I had this problem else where and knew about this problem and continued to install the fittings on more jobs, yes then maybe I would hold some liability but I have stopped using ProPress fittings untill this is at the least solved and I might not use them anymore at all because I have a hard time using a product where the manufacturer does not stand behind the installer when there is a problem, I am at the present doing everything in my power to get satisfaction for my customer.




S Davis

DanHolohan

As you wish.

Perry_2

I understand your position and am glad you have been so open

However, unless your state has a law that specifically exempts the installer for a mfr defect - the legal system in the US tends to punish all who have touched the product with the problem. I know that is usually unfair - but it is how it works. While I have no idea if Harold will resort to litigation or not (it is a painfull track to take) - a person in your situation usually has little protection on the liability. Your best option would probably to fully co-operate with the plaintiff. Then - the judge might only find you 5 - 10% liable instead of a lot more.

I wish you the best. It does seem that you have been open and honest on the situation.

Perry

[Deleted User]

Solder joints fail too...

I know all too well. I had a soldered joint that I had done fail 2 years after it was installed and do about $50,000 worth of damage to a weekend home. My insurance carrier covered the claim (begrudgingly), but required us to "substantially change our mode of pressurization" on these closed loop systems. We opted to start using what we now refer to as a Fill Safe system which has a limited amount of fluid (3 to 5 gallons) it can leak out before the system shuts down on low pressure. Many of you know it as The PIG. The insurance company continued to insure us (for a substantial increase in premiums) and we continued to install hydronic heating systems.

Point being, I personally soldered the 1" joint myself, and trust me when I state that I am a practiced soldering expert.

Upon removal and disassembly, I found that the makers indellable mark EPCO which was stamped into the side of the fitting had acted as an oxide magnet/trap and had only allowed a superficial face tinning at that point of the joint. The balance of the joint was perfectly tinned. Over a period of 2 years worth of expansion and contraction, the joint finally failed as a pin hole leak, and at 12 PSI did $50K worth of damage to this persons home in the period of a week. It made me want to get out of the hydronic heating business and also made me want to cry.

So, if you really trust all that you do as being as near perfect as it can be, then you are still rolling the dice controlled by someone else trying to comply to the intent of the code by stamping their makers mark into the side of a fitting. Situation beyond my personal control...

NO system is fool proof. NONE of them.

We take risks on a daily basis, and those risks include the possibility of flood damage, electrocution, fire, explosion and collapse and carbon monoxide poisoning, to say nothing of the guy driving with a hangover in your service van because he and his ol' lady aren't getting along.

It's not a question of IF, but more a matter of WHEN, and then the end result is a matter of WHO steps up to the plate and owns up to their mistake.

I say give Rigid-Viega a chance to step up to the plate to explain their actions, and if no explanation is forth coming, then you can make a decision based on their action or inaction. Bear in mind that they may not be allowed to publicly address this situation due to legal ramifications.

Remember the Kitec pipe failures? I don't think we ever did hear the end results of that, but at least corporate did step up to the plate to explain their actions. That is the true measure of a good company. And I still am using their PAP products comfortably.

ME

Rocky_2

ProPress systems

Have three of the 320-E battery tools. Have done miles of everything from 1/2" to 4". Most of our systems up here have HEAVY glycol percentages to keep our sytems safe from the -50 below boogie-man. Have not had any leaking press joints. We service probably 90% of our installs so we see whats going on year to year. Do I think this system is fail safe? Nope. But I do know that with the money I've saved in labor, if I ever do have a few leaks, I can probably take care of them and still be WAY ahead. I do not envy anyone who has a customer demanding that their system be "ripped out and redone" due to something beyond the contractor's control. But to trash what appears to be a very fine product and process too hastily is ill advised. I know I will personally continue to use the press fittings. My 2 cents worth.
Warm regards, from chilly Fairbanks,

Rocky

Constantin

Yup..

... I've seen two solder failures, one here, one in a different home. Leaks can happen with all systems if the conditions are just right...

Then there was my personal water heater job... I didn't bank on the water heater being so efficient as to melt bits and bobs of the hot water circuit on the boat. A TRV later and that problem is gone too... no one really needs to wash with 180°F water...

I think the pig feeder is a very wise way to run make-up water. A large-enough expansion tank needs no power to work, provides more than enough make-up water, and will not ruin a home the way that unliminted water can. I asked for the same to be installed in the latest heating project I was peripherally involved in.

On my own heating system, the feeder valve is simply shut off. Ragu pointed out that the backflow preventer, etc. can leak and that there should be a shutoff between the auto-feeder and the system too. For me, it's too late. Perhaps others can add this simple layer of protection.

I wonder if they make DPTP LWCO's? Many boilers simply shut off the boiler when the LWCO trips... it would be great if you could have a second dry contact in the LWCO to also alert the alarm/service company.