condensing boiler installation looking for some help on this..?

Perry_2

for about $75,000 we should be able to get you a crackerjack solar system that actaully works....

A new boiler and updated heating system is probalby less than $10,000. Perhaps $20,000 on the extreem high end with lots of work.

Perry

jeff_86

condensing boiler installation

older 2 story farm house....adding a garage for car collection...i want to remove the old oil fired boiler and all equipment with it...no natural gas available and dont want the oil fired heat. my heat loss calc- heat load of 95,000 btu/hr on the house and garage add on is a heat load of 30,000 btu/hr.. i need a solution for heating the house and add on... but without using natural gas.. oil ... or electric... if any one could help me it would be greatly appreciated... thanks.... -jeff

Andy_14

I guess that means you will be using Propane.

zeke

Or wood, coal

Brad White_138

Or nuclear...

Your place, is it in Iran or North Korea?

Robert O'Brien

Why?

the distaste for oil? It's cheaper on a BTU basis than Propane

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

J.C.A._3

Oil is still a good choice.

Dollars to btu's, it's about running neck and neck with gas where I live, your place may be different. Propane is quite a bit more expensive when the costs are all added up..(139000 btu/gal. of oil vs.around 100000btu's per gal. of propane)

The new oil equipment is clean AND quiet when done right. With the advances in the controls in the past 10-15 years, and the right person doing the install you can get a good "bang for the buck".

If the outbuilding has to be heated remotely, size the boiler for use with a heat exchanger and glycol.remember that the glycol affects the amount of btu's deivered, so that has to be factored in.As long as the tank is in good shape, I see no reason to change fuels.

There is a choice for condensing oil also. The Monitor FCX is a condensing oil boiler.It's a bit more pricey than the standard boiler, but none the less available.There is also an offering from Peerless now. Check them out and see what you think. JMHO. Chris

Weezbo

well,...you have a few choises....

first of all, where are you located?

are you in a city ?

moored to the marriana trench ?

some of your choises would be limited by where you are ....

jeff_86

oil is getting removed....no natural gas is available..and electricity is too expensive... what about a hydronic steam system...? any way i could make this work....

Weezbo

city steam?

we have .... it requires many pieces however.

J.C.A._3

Jeff,

Steam from What? Only thing I can think of is a municipal supply.

If you have a steam supply...chances are you've got another supply for heat. If you're so insistant on getting rid of the oil,and the choices you listed are so limited, your choice is propane...cut and dry.

Oil IS your option....or you go with propane. It looks like either/or.

Maybe I missed something...but oil is MY choice, and I'm sticking to it. Chris

Guy_6

Fuel

If oil is out, then Propane will really be your only "inexpensive" option. I would think that steam would be a bit pricey on the install, but as you can read here on any given day, STEAM HEAT IS AWESOME.
That being said, I think that an LP fired Mod/Con boiler would be your best option for flexibility and efficiency. As for which brand-well, I have MY preferences, but it is really up to the installer and service company's comfort and experience level with a particular brand.

Perry_2

Other alternatives

OK: So you are looking for alternatives to using oil and natural gas:

Actually, there are a few. But.... they all depend on your situation for what you need - and possibly on the amont of money you are willing to spend:

Coal is a good choice if you live in coal country.

Corn works if you live in corn country (note that the price of corn has shot up a dollar a bushel in the last 6 months).

Wood (solid, wood chips, even wood pellets) works if you live where you can get cheap wood (I have a brother who has heated his house with wood for decades from the back 80 acres of woodland). But, wood is not worth transporting.

Solar works if you live in the right environment and your house is optimized for solar (typically designed for solar) - Very expensive otherwise: in either a complicated system or in major reconstruction of the house.

Geothermal heat pumps (several varieties) works if you can handle the installation cost and if the house can be - or can reasonably be heated withe less than 120 F water. I actually wanted a geothermal system for my house - but need 140 F water for my heating system in the coldest days of the year.

A few other rare situations may exist depending where you live. There are a few municipal or industrilized centralized steam - or hot water - systems in the US. There are a few waste heat streams from other businesses or processes that can be tapped. Their are only a few peat bogs in the US that can be harvested and dried (common in some parts of europe). And you have it made if you live next to a large hot spring or gyser .... I presume you do not live near any of those otherwise you would probably not have posted your question the way you did.

If none of the above really appeals to you - then you are left with either oil, LP, or being cold.

Perry

jeff_86

ok..

i am a first year HVAC student...and this is my BIG midterm assignment... i have to do as i listed above...
no oil....no electricity....natural gas in not available.. it is my job to come up with a solution for heating the model house...

i need to create a packaged quote to explain in detail the proper removal of existing boiler and installation of a new boiler and related equipment...all must comform to oil/gas/propane codes and regulations..

so if anyone could help me get this jump started..would be great

Uni R_2

Dig!

Start digging straight down and about 3,200 miles before you get to the middle of the planet, you'll find more than enough heat... maybe a ways up from that and you can set up a ground loop for you and all your neigbors.

Is money an issue for this assignment?

Pinball

Hey Jeff
check with the instructor cause NO electricity only leaves you the option of combustable solids (wood or coal) and can't support circulators or pumps or power burners of any kind without 125vac. That narrows it down to gravity hot water,with no thermostat or gravity hot air and no t'stat either! does'nt make for much control,efficency or comfort now does it?
Sounds like an old wood stove in the middle of the room is about all you get

Al

Perry_2

Assignment options

As I see the options given these restrictions:

1) Old (really old) wood or coal furnace. It would have to be periodically hand fed. You may be able to burn other local solid organic products (corn, and other plant matter).

2) Gravity operated solar with manual dampers and valves. Would require manual tending (solar heating spaces with curtins count). Sometimes called passive solar - you would need to modify the house substaintially.

3) Sealed Nuclear decay heat package & gravity water or air. Would provide steady heat that slowly decays (i.e. in 10 years it might provide 1/2 of the heat that it provides when new. I suspose with the right elements perhaps you get the half life to 20 years or more. Note- he cost of construction and for a nuclear possession license and other features is really high. Decay heat packages (themonic generation) is used for very exoctic items where cost does not matter (satilites, spy stations on mountains, undersea monitoring stations).

Perry

Perry_2

Could you have a waterwheel...

If you can have the house near a steady stream or river you could build a waterwheel.

The waterwheel could run a small air compressor.

With compressed air you can run pneumatic controls, pumps, and fans - and virtually anything currently done with electric controls can be done with pneumatics (just not as precise). most large buildings, industial plants, and all power plants up to the 1970's had extensive pneumatic contol systems.

Once you have pneumatics - you can automate your heating system so that it does not have to be manually tended (and the waterwheel operation can be automated as well).

Hope this helps...

Perry

Mitch_4

no electricity

Clarify please. Does this mean there is no electricity in the home? so power pile or solid fuel / solar only? because you cannot run anything that uses 120 / 24 volt if there is no electricity.

Or that electric heat is not an option..

mitch

Xc8p2dC_2

The all natural way

Run your piping thru a mulch pile of wood chips... a 20ft pile behind my home has been running 120-160deg for about a year

jeff_86

this is my outline

asked 2 remove existing oil fired boiler & related components, there is no natural gas available and client no longer wants oil fired heat... recent heat load of 95,000 btu/hr for house and a 30,000 btu/hr on the addition...in this job come up with a solution for heating the house and the addition..client doesnt want oil and electric heat is too expensive....client expects a packaged quote to explain in detail the proper removal of existing boiler and installation of a new boiler and related equipment .....

jeff_86

this is my outline

asked 2 remove existing oil fired boiler & related components, there is no natural gas available and client no longer wants oil fired heat... recent heat load of 95,000 btu/hr for house and a 30,000 btu/hr on the addition...in this job come up with a solution for heating the house and the addition..client doesnt want oil and electric heat is too expensive....client expects a packaged quote to explain in detail the proper removal of existing boiler and installation of a new boiler and related equipment .....

Perry_2

This indicates that you can use electricty for accessories

Most likely fuel choice: LP

Install a Mod/Con boiler to maximize fuel efficiency.

Electricty would be used to operate the controls and circulating pump.

Perry

clammy

steam /gravity hot water/via millivolt

How about propane millivolt burner you could either do steam or gravity hot water and easier yet gravity air using some ducts and either a steam or hot water coil you canm make a large enough insulated pleum box and run out some outside wall returns on the first floor and reduce that same duct to the 2 nd floor using say 7 inch oval stack head set low in the wall s and then run some supply ducts up on your inside wall ,remenber to run your returns down to the basemnent floor and come into the bottom of your hung pleum now just to find a old santary pin convector to use and lets no forget some dampers to balance the gravity flow .A job out back like the one your are suppose to be designing i would gather would work better with a steam boiler and the higher steam temps would also help a gravity air system plus a tankless coil for domestic water and a maintaning aquastat to ensure that the boiler does not freeze you coils also do the same set up with say a gasafaction type solid /wood burner stove but it would have to be hot water and it peformace may not be that great because of limits of the tappings on the unit ,on another note a steam boiler converted to hot water is a better choice for a gravuty set up because of there larger tapping on the boiler block unlike it's hot water partners hope this helps you out peace and good luck clammy

clammy

another idea

after re reading you post and projest assianed to you how about either steam or hat water millivolt using a pipe raditor alson the walls this could be a simple one pipe steam depending upon where the boiler is located or gravity hot water using a express riser to the highest piont and gravity the returns back to the boiler returns ports you would in all likly hood need some type of boiler return protection and also soem orifices or balancing valves to adjus flow the steam does sound the best with the leats amount of freeze potentinal and higher outputs plus at such a low lose if correctly layout would only probalby require a 2 supply pipe to your emmitters peace and good luck clammy

Weezbo

*`/:)

Good read .

Jeff, there are some other choices however they are by no means as simple as connecting to your neighbours over sized boiler through an ingenious labyrinth of tunnels complete with some new large pipes serindipitously appearing within his boiler room that seem to go straight into the basement slab:)

on another note....Have you looked into Passive Air Heating?

district heating?

jeff_86

is there ne more ideas out there to get me started..? i got 2 weeks to put this together now... thanks alot for all ur ideas/help and suggestions feel free to add some more...

jp_2

solar

solar hot water heat! construct the entire sun facing roof into a solar collector.

jeff_86

ok i got it all ..... i need to list the code to remove the old oil unit... and list the new code to install a new propane unit....and decided to install a radiant floor heating system for the garage.... so if any one can help me for using realistic quotes and products for my project would be great,as i need to include pictures and colour with it ... thanks again

jimbo_7

Required water temp?

Perry, just out of curiousity, how does one determine the required heating-water temp? Obviously somehow related to geography and the structure's heat loss, is there some sort of chart based on these two factors which could tell me my home's hot-water-heat required temp? Thanks much for your help...

jimbo_7

Required water temp?

> OK: So you are looking for alternatives to using

> oil and natural gas:

>

> Actually, there are a

> few. But.... they all depend on your situation

> for what you need - and possibly on the amont of

> money you are willing to spend:

>

> Coal is a good

> choice if you live in coal country.

>

> Corn works

> if you live in corn country (note that the price

> of corn has shot up a dollar a bushel in the last

> 6 months).

>

> Wood (solid, wood chips, even wood

> pellets) works if you live where you can get

> cheap wood (I have a brother who has heated his

> house with wood for decades from the back 80

> acres of woodland). But, wood is not worth

> transporting.

>

> Solar works if you live in the

> right environment and your house is optimized for

> solar (typically designed for solar) - Very

> expensive otherwise: in either a complicated

> system or in major reconstruction of the

> house.

>

> Geothermal heat pumps (several

> varieties) works if you can handle the

> installation cost and if the house can be - or

> can reasonably be heated withe less than 120 F

> water. I actually wanted a geothermal system for

> my house - but need 140 F water for my heating

> system in the coldest days of the year.

>

> A few

> other rare situations may exist depending where

> you live. There are a few municipal or

> industrilized centralized steam - or hot water -

> systems in the US. There are a few waste heat

> streams from other businesses or processes that

> can be tapped. Their are only a few peat bogs in

> the US that can be harvested and dried (common in

> some parts of europe). And you have it made if

> you live next to a large hot spring or gyser ....

> I presume you do not live near any of those

> otherwise you would probably not have posted your

> question the way you did.

>

> If none of the above

> really appeals to you - then you are left with

> either oil, LP, or being cold.

>

> Perry



Perry, just out of curiousity, how does one determine the required heating-water temp? Obviously somehow related to geography and the structure's heat loss, is there some sort of chart based on these two factors which could tell me my home's hot-water-heat required temp? Thanks much for your help...

jimbo_7

Required water temp?

Perry, just out of curiousity, how does one determine the required heating-water temp? Obviously somehow related to geography and the structure's heat loss, is there some sort of chart based on these two factors which could tell me my home's hot-water-heat required temp? Thanks much for your help...