Adding a second hydronic loop to a W/M Ultra

Andy_14

Mark, I am also from the Rockford, Il area. If you don't mind, could you e-mail me the name of the company who did the install?

ferg1910@aol.com

Mark Rockville

Adding a second hydronic loop to a W/M Ultra

I am a consumer who recently had a Weil McLain Ultra boiler installed in my three-zone ranch home (two radiant zones in the ceiling of the first floor and one in the basement floor, each with its own circulator). The hvac installer did not use a primary/secondary hydronic scheme as W/M specifies in their installation manual. Instead the supply side pipe goes straight to the manifolds of the three zones and the return side comes straight back to boiler. The system is wired so that whenever a t-stat calls for heat, the appropriate circulator starts and the boiler fires up.

At my insistence, the installer is returning and will add the primary loop. I would appreciate it if anyone would look at the three enclosed photos of my system and make recommendations about proper plumbing for the primary loop. Your knowledge is obviously considerably more than my installer.

In the photos the black circulator services the basement floor, while the two red circulators handle the first floor. BTW, the large red BG pump is left over from the old days. When its partner died several years ago, it was replace by the smaller BG circulator.

And thanks. This site is a wonderful find.

Uni R_2

Oh boy...

Hey! What's a nice boiler like you doing with piping like this?

A couple of other big concerns besides the lack of P/S.

What size is the boiler and what size is most of that piping?

Are you even sure which way the water is flowing through the boiler?

The supply is on the right and the return is on the left when you face the boiler. The supply must have a PRV mounted on it. W-M is very clear where it should be. Your PRV is off that back circuit and must be installed on the boiler.

Essentially what you want to do is ensure your circs are pumping out to their respective circuits. Then the spirovent and tank (which needs to be much better supported) should be mounted upstream of the zone circs. Then you'll need to have the installer put in two tightly spaced tees (with shutoff valves before and after) and then connect that to the returns for the heating circuits (not boiler).

Then take the first tee (system return) and connect it to a new properly sized circ (try and use iso-flanges) and then run it into the boiler return on the left side. Next, after adding a 3/4" tee for the PRV atop the boiler supply side, run it to a ball valve and then to the other closely spaced tee in the heating circuit that will be on the supply side of the heating circuit. You could use an IFC type circ for flow control or install a device on the supply side.

I'd also get that condensate line off the floor from in front of the door. It's a tripping hazard and it's just asking to get crushed.

Personally, I'd try and get a better installer and let them cut out as much of that as they feel they need to. W-M provides very clear instuctions on how these boilers are to be set up.

Mark Rockville

Thanks, plus a clarification

Thanks for your recommendations. The circulators are on the return side, and have been for 55 years (since the house was built). They were on a large cast-iron boiler. The installer basically cut out the old boiler and dropped in the W/M Ultra with minimum repiping, so the circulators are indeed on the return side. Is it absolutely necessary that they "push" the water on the supply side instead of "pull" it through the return? (This might be a stupid question but I would rather ask it of you than the installer.)

I like your idea of getting a better installer. My brother-in-law had a plumbing business and now is a cost estimator for a large firm; I hope he can provide some good leads.

brucewo1b

Mark

Have you tried the Find A Professional link at the top of this page??

Mark Rockville

Find a Professional

Yes, this was the first link I examined. Unfortunately the closest company listed is 45 miles away. No one is listed in my county of 270,000 people.

Mitch_6

Done alot of Ultras

photos are tough but it don't look good.

See my photos on my find a pro.

I suggest you get a manufacturers rep or someone that knows Ultras in to take a look.

Mitch S.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

brucewo1b

Where do you live

someone from that area might just be here though not listed.

Mark Rockville

Where do you live?

I live in Rockford, Illinois.

Glenn Harrison_2

Not good!

Mark, do you have a copy of the Ultra boiler manual that came with the unit? If not you can download it from the following url:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/Ultra 310/UltraBoilerManual.pdf

Take a close look at pages 13, 14, and 16.They show exactly how the boiler should be piped and all the components needed such as the relief valve, check valves, pumps. It also will show you what size pump you need for the boiler loop.

You deffinatly have a mess there, but it can be salvaged but you will need to keep an eye on the installer while keeping the other eye in the boiler manual, as it is obious that he only used the manual for a kneeling pad or a clean up rag

Also, that black pump needs to be turned 90° so that the motor shaft is sideways instead of up and down.

One last thing, have him install a couple of tee's in the appropriate places in the boiler loop for future addition of an indirect water heater to replace you exisitng gas unit when it's time comes. You won't regret it.

By the way, I just noticed where you said you live. I'm a service tech/ Boiler installer for a small company in Crystal Lake. I know that is a little far, but I know the boss would not have a problem going out there, If we can be of assistance to you. Otherwise, I'm sure our sales rep for our Weil McLain distributor could find a qualified Ultra installer in your area. Let me know either here on The Wall or at my e-mail glennhvacman@comcast.net

Floyd

Glenn,

I hope that he is lucky enough to get you to work on that and fix it up for him. That sure is NOT the way an Ultra is to be installed!!!!

Floyd

Tombig_2

Ultra Mess

All good advise Mark. What happened to the Taco (green) primary loop pump that ships with all Ultras? W-M supplies that to (hopefully) insure P/S piping. All your near boiler piping is 1". It may need to upsize depending on the size of the boiler. As Glenn said, definitely leave tees for adding an indirect water heater. I would check w/ W-M but you might be able to leave the system pumps on the return side and the air eliminator where it is provided you have no over pressure or air problems with the system. Good luck.

mikea23

Besides the piping look at the gas line is that teflon on natural gas piping. I am not sure what the installation price was but i can assure you it was too much.
Mike