Conventional nat gas hot water heater

Ken_40

All your "data" is based on "estimates" and vague non-scientific, totally unacceptable to anyone with true statistical savvy, "data."

When you can site true scientific statistical data, based on real medical evidence and statistics, we'll talk more.

Until that time, hysteria, clinical mis-information, and quasi-educational forums based on "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" cries do more harm to any actual threat, than allowing this "crusade" to continue without any critical analysis.

Your obsession with LD seems to be based more on the hysterical nature of you assuming the mantle of a town crier, than scientific analysis.

Show us the proof of hard statistical evidence to support your "sky's falling," and we'll beat your drum for and with you. Continue with inuendo, soft data, estimates and "maybes," "could haves," "would haves," and purely anectdotal resources and we would be unlikely supporters.

Until such time, continue to beat your drum, but please don't assume to validate your position simply because you see it in print, almost always with you as the author of such "documentation."

The hard, scientific evidence to date, neither supports nor denies most of your allegations. What the hard scientific evidence DOES support is the claims that you make are anything but that. Wherein lies my "issues" with your claims.

Keep in mind, the discovery of LD, or rather its identification as being a unique source of infection, happenned 30 years ago! Given that time-frame, one would assum more than mere "estimates" would be forthcoming, were the threat anywhere near as threatening as you suggest?

Also be aware, I still prefer to party with short men...

Dave_23

Conventional HW heater recommendation

Folks,
What make/model/brand of conventional 50 gallon nat gas fired hot water heater do you recommend? Also, is the extended warranty version of most HW heaters worth the extra expense? I live in an area with pretty good, normal water condtions. No well water, etc. Note: As much as I'd like to, I can't install a tankless or an indirect in my situation. Thanks in advance.

Unknown

a lot of water heaters

Granted, they don't make them like they use too... A lot of water heater tanks are made by one company, Rheem... ( GE at home depot are made by Rheem)... I seen a lot of Bradford White failure at supply home. With them bs flame gaurd style on heaters, they all have to be re make so the track record will be new... To make all water heater lasts longer, install proper sized exp tank on cold water upply before going into heater..

Ken_40

He's right

Rheem seems okay, State as well, A.O.Smith too.

There are only three makers, the rest "brand" theirs, but buy from the big-three (or four).

If your water's good, you should get 10+ years out of a 5 or 10 year unit, regardless of stated warranty. The alleged cost for a 10 yr. vs. a 5 year is from a larger anode inside the 10 year. I suspect it may be that and a higher profit margin per unit to "cover" the extended warranty claims that would logically occur.

Of course there are vaiations of the basic 5 and 10 yr. warranty, but of little consequence IMHO.

mtfallsmikey

It also depends on

Incoming water pressure and temperature. Glass lining in tanks can crack from thermal shock. Also, draining junk from bottom of tank helps. A.O. Smith is the Cadillac.

Ken_40

Mike's got a point...

By slightly oversizing the water heater storage capacity (say from a 40 to a 50), the average temperature of the water can be lowered a tad, resulting in greater longevity. If you go nuts (oversizing by a lot), and leave the 'stat at the lowest setting - which reduces fuel expenses, you may induce condensation to a large extent - and the rsults will be negative, instead of positive.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

raise, not lower

Be aware of the risks for bacterial amplification in potable hot water systems. Water heaters arrive pre-set for approximately 120F, which is already within the range for bacterial amplification. Lowering the temperature increases those risks. But, don't take my work for it - go check out the risks by exploring the issue. You'll find the following things enhance Legionella bacterial amplification (and you'll also see water heaters listed as being an amplifier):

* water temps between 55 & 133 F with the 85 to 110 range being ideal. 98.6 is spot-on.

* biofilms, sediment & rust as a bacterial food source

* pH of 5.0 to 8.5

* stagnation

Then again, just ask Mark Eatherton what lowering the water temperature can do!

Raising the temperature to 140F (min) and adding safety devices to prevent scalding is more in line with what would be best. BTW, at 120F scalding is still a risk, which might help explain why more than 100,000 seek out medical treatment for hot water burns each year in the US. 3rd degree burns still occur within five minutes contact time, so that 120F isn't the safe temp everyone's been mislead to believe - in more ways than one.

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Dave_23

I wish

I wish I had a bit more of a stagnation problem. With multiple children, wife, dishwasher, washing machine, etc. I don't believe HW sticks around in our home too long. I get your point, though. It never occurred to me that higher temps help prevent biohazards. Do you believe that chlorination by the local water dept offsets/minimizes any hazard associated with a 120 degree F setting (or less)?

Dan C.

they are all the same

They are all designed not to last so it really doesn't matter what you put in as far as the brand is concerned

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Ken_40

The mathematical probability of

Legionella surving and being breathed by anyone in the modern world is substantial enough to allow Dave Yates a lot of latitude to warn us all.

I suspect however, he errs so far on the side of safety, as to lose much of the credibility of the point. Considering far many more people die or get sick from bee stings, than Legionaires, we have an activist involved in an illness so removed from probable encounters - that credibility starts to wane.

Let's kill all bees and wasps first, then worry about Legionaires disease(;-o)

Unknown

no for you, Ken

No honey for you, Ken......

Dave Yates (PAH)

no

Chlorine is innefective at penetrating biofilms and at 2 to 4 PPM has no affect on Legionella bacteria.

Chlorine Dioxide works as does copper/silver ionization and UV with upstream ultrasonic bombardment is used quite effictively in some commercial applications. However, hot water pasteurization is by far the cheapest and most readily available treatment available. At 140F, it still requires a 20-minute contact time to kill off the free-roaming characters. Bugs concealed in the outer fringes of biofilm in metalic piping can, according to a study done by Danfoss, survive, which is why super-heated flushes don't work on a long-term basis for treatment.

OK Ken, 600,000 folks are admitted with diagnosed community acquired pneumonia every year. Estimates are that somewhere between 2% to 15% of those folks have LD. There is a 5% to 30% death rate for Legionella based CAP. So, if there are 80,000 or 90,000 cases of CAP-acquired LD per year, there exists the possibility that 16,000 to 18,000 Americans are dying each year from LD (based on a 20% death rate). Potable hot water systems are said to be the most likely source of bacterial amplification and infection. The CDC estimates would lend credence to these numbers. You're welcome to any opinion you like, but I'd really prefer you do a little research first. As I said, don't take my word on this issue - go and get your own answers.

BTW, I checked on those bee sting deaths & they list an average of 90 to 100 per year. While we can't prevent bee stings without killing off beneficial insects, we could prevent the deaths attributable to bacterial amplification (bugs that serve no known usefull purpose that benefits mankind) in our home-based hot water systems (for those who survive, there are often life-long disabilities associated with the LD) and the 100,000 scalding cases with 38,000 of them being children, infants and elderly and the dozens of deaths associated with scalding - each year. Those, we could control and eliminate - without wiping out entire species of insects.

I really don't care if you disagree and I don't much care anymore about the complacency you and others show regarding these issues that I have documented, written about & devoted years to researching the issues. It's in your hands and on your concience to wrestle with. You gave this gent some lousy advice that needed a different perspective so he could weigh the advice/options and decide what he thinks is right for himself and his family. I brought you the info needed to go out and confirm, independently, the truths associated with them. You can choose to remain ignorant of the facts if that's what makes you happy.

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jim lockard

On a hook

I purchased and installed an A.O. Smith power vent water heater 2 weeks later the gas controller took a dump. The customer was quite upset as his DTR was getting married the next weekend. A.O. Smith sent new parts which looked nothing like the old gas controller and the supply house sent me a bill for 350.00 bucks Took 3 months to get a credit to my acct. Next time I get a bad water heater I will cut it out and haul it back to the supplier. J.Lockard

Larry Weingarten

I'll suggest...

... that make doesn't matter too much. I like to use a tank that has a five or six year warranty and very good (R-16-20)insulation. I like to add a second, full length magnesium anode for more life. If you're doing it up, add a curved dip tube and full port ball valve as the drain for effective flushing. Do make sure both anodes are the same metal. Rheem and State tanks usually have room for the second anode.

Yours, Larry

Ken_40

We too had

an alarming number of A.O.Smiths fail in under a year. Our wholesaler said "no problem." When I saw a $50. change-out fee on my statement at month's end, I informed the wholealer we would not pay it. He balked and suggeste AOS was charging him that forpaper handling and shipping losses.

I told him I would not pay the fee and paid my 2-10, net; sans $50. This went on for three months before they decided to add interest to the $50 "balance."

I spoke to the owner and reminded him we did over 10K a month with him, only bought a few water heaters a year and that he would lose all our business if he kept it up.

Next month's statement credited the fee and interest.

Score one for the good guys?

Mark Hunt

Not sure how or why it happens but


there was a picture posted here a few years back of an AO Smith WH that was bulging. My mother-in-law had the same thing happen to her AO Smith WH.

No excessive heat and no excessive pressure.

I will be replacing a 6 year old Rheem power-vent this week that has developed a crack in the lining. The customer doesn't like rust colored water and rust stains on their white laundry.

Water heaters get over-looked more than any other heating appliance.(Until the first cold shower anyway) When was the last time someone called you to clean and service their gas water heater????

Mark H

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

fair enough, but

not exactly right either. If you'd been reading and paying attention all these years, you'd have the facts at your disposal.

Let's turn that around. You find me solid scientific evidence that bacterial amplification is not an issue on two fronts: in our potable hot water systems; and in open direct potable/hydronic systems. Then there's the scalding issues along with that info I've provided - again, on more than one occasion. I've given you the scientific evidence, on numerous occasions, that supports my positions. Or, you can keep bloviating. I made the same offer to the open system supporters & they've maintained their silence for years. The best they ever mustered was "show me the bodies". I did, citing several deaths directly attributable to potable hot water systems and five detailed studies where water heaters were tested for Legionella - specifically Sero Group 1, the strain primarily responsible for LD. In each test, a percentage of those water heaters tested positive & those tests were performed at a time when water heaters were set to maintain hotter water. Hysteria? I need only look at SARS and West Nile to see that & they're dealing with far fewer deaths.

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Dave_23

AO Smith selection

Folks, After visiting the AO Smith website for HW heaters, I came away more confused than informed. I'm preparing to hire a contractor (plumber) to replace my existing 50 gal conventional HWH. I'm simply attempting to become an informed consumer, so I can have an intelligent discussion with the person I hire to do the work. I don't consider a HWH replacement a DIY job, but I would like to be informed. As an aside, the steam expert I hired to replace my boiler a few years ago asked me if I would help him with the install. He offered me a discount of the difference between what he would have to pay for a helper. His philosophy is that of a teacher. He felt that as an interested homeowner, I would/should have at least a basic understanding of my boiler and related systems. It really helped with my understanding of my system. OK, after this longwinded tangent, my goal with the HWH selection, in a manner similar to my boiler story above, is to be "informed". So, which 50 gal model (must vent into existing chimney shared with boiler) would you recommend? I'm more concerned about efficiency and recovery than initial cost. Thanks, Dave