Piping layout OK?

Andy_14

Would like to start mocking up this piping. Does it look OK to you? It is for a single zone one room slab.

Ted_9

wondering

I dont care what boiler it is, but do they provide sample piping diagrams? If so, why not use on of them? Is that one of their diagrams?

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Andy_14

No it is not one of the manufactures diagrams. Boiler is a Trinity TI150. I had a radiant design company do the diagram for me but theirs had the pipes comming out the bottom of the boiler and a couple other small things changed. I want to start piping this tomarrow and will not be able to get ahold of the design company till monday. Being such a simple diagram I thought others could let me know if everything looks OK.

Steamhead (in transit)

Andy, I'd change three things

right off the bat: First, the expansion tank and water feed should be piped off the bottom of the Spirovent. Second, the primary circulator should pump in the other direction- AWAY from the Spirovent/tank and feed connection, TOWARD the secondary loop and stub-offs. Third, on the secondary loop, the circ should be on the supply takeoff and pump AWAY from the primary loop.

This arrangement will give you superior air elimination, resulting in quieter operation and slightly better efficiency. The Spirovent/tank and feed connection would be the "point of no pressure change" and all the circs would pump away from that point.

We do all our primary-secondary jobs according to this basic principle, and it works great. Here is a pic of one such job.

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Ted_9

Andy, I dont like th e diagram they gave you. I would pipe it differently. I looked at the Trinity install manual and I wasnt impressed with the piping diagrams either. I personally like the way lets say the Munchkin diagram shows the piping.

Here it is:
http://htproducts.com/literature/lp-61.pdf

I like diagram 2c, but I did not design your system and I dont know what you have.




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Andy_14

Thank you very much for the replies! Your responses are unexpected as I have been very happy with the company who did this for me, but I will definately hold off until Monday and ask them to consider your recomendations.

Please continue with suggestions as I would like to get this piped the best way possible the first time.

Also the capped stubs will most likely never be used but I asked that they be added just in case an air handler is needed later for the space.

Andy_14

[quote]right off the bat: First, the expansion tank and water feed should be piped off the bottom of the Spirovent. Second, the primary circulator should pump in the other direction- AWAY from the Spirovent/tank and feed connection, TOWARD the secondary loop and stub-offs. Third, on the secondary loop, the circ should be on the supply takeoff and pump AWAY from the primary loop.[quote/]

Andy_14

I understand the first thing you've suggested but the next two things I don't understand.

"Second, the primary circulator should pump in the other direction- AWAY from the Spirovent/tank and feed connection, TOWARD the secondary loop and stub-offs"

Since that circ is on the inlet pipe, I don't see how that is possible unless you mean it needs to be on the outlet pipe?

"Third, on the secondary loop, the circ should be on the supply takeoff and pump AWAY from the primary loop."

Isn't it just like your saying in the diagram I've posted?

Andy_14

Any other suggestions? Thanks

Steamhead (in transit)

Well, I'm no artist

but here's an attempt at illustration. I left off the valves and other things that wouldn't be changed.

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Uni R_2

Follow the Mfr's Instructions

Doing that would be my suggestion. They want the circ on the boiler circuit to actually be pumping directly into the HX and that is how I would have it piped.

So after the boiler outlet you'd have a LWCO if needed, then any P/S heating circuits/stubs, then the air extractor/tank/feed, then the circ then back in the return side.

ed rockwelll

boiler

andy i dont like where expansion is located in first drawing too many valves from boiler to tank

Andy_14

The manufacturer shows the circulator after the boiler outlet, before the secondary loop.(as Steamhead has posted)

Uni R_2

T vs Ti

Andy, I was giving you the piping for the Ti, which is the newer model where the piping goes out the side instead of coming off the bottom.

Andy_14

Yes, I have the Ti(piping coming out the side) and again looking at pg.14 in the manual it shows the circ on the outlet pipe before the secondary loop

Andy_14

Is your diagram an example of the "Pumping Away" theroy?

I guess what i'm wondering is...pumping away means pumping away from the boiler, (vent,exp tank,fill) to the secondary loop? As opposed to pumping into the boiler? Or am I way off?

brucewo1b

Andy take boiler out of your sentance

pumping away means pumping away from the (vent,exp tank,fill) or known as Ponit of No Pressure Change(PONPC)

Andy_14

OK, Using Steamheads drawing and just adding valves,etc. how does this look? Should anything be changed?

Andy_14

Thanks Bruce!

Steamhead (in transit)

That

should work perfectly. The valve placement shown would make servicing easier.

Consider adding an indirect tank to your stubs. This will increase your water-heating efficiency and longevity well beyond those of a standard gas heater.

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Luke Lefever_3

Don't forget that the Trinity has a "high head" heat exchanger and will require a modest circulating pump.

We use Grundfos and a 15-58 won't quite do it.

Andy_14

Luke, I was given two 15-58 pumps, for the primary and secondary pumps. Now after reading the manual, I see they recommend a mimimum of the 26-64 for primary pump.

Can I use the 26-64 for the primary pump and the 15-58 for the secondary pump or would I need a 26-64 for the secondary pump also? This is one zone(room) with 10 loops and aprox 3000 ft of tubing.

Andy_14

Actully now looking at the grundfos UPS26-99 (3-speed).
Just waiting for Grundfos to fax me some specs I requested. Still don't have a clue as to the secondary pump though.

I talked with the design company today and they have no problem swapping out the pumps for me. They say the 15-58 on high should work, but i'm thinking maybe one size larger pump(UPS26-99) on low or medium may be better? Any thoughts on that appreciated. Thanks

hr

Still another

With this piping the indirect would run with just a single circ. It would need to be sized to the boiler and indirect needs. Most boiler manufactures give you the needed spec.. With this piping the (future) indirect would send the coldest temperature to the boiler without and P/S blending.

All circuits pump away from the PONPC

The mod cons are happiest (most efficient) seeing the lowest possible return temperature.

hot rod

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Andy_14

hot rod,
Your drawing is not primary/secondary correct?

hr

yes and

the radiant to boiler is a P/s are shown by the closely spaced tee connection. The indirect is in parallel with three boiler, typically on a priority.

I'd consider the radiantloop with the purger and expansion the primary loop, but that's debateable.

This is a common layout found in the Weil, Munchkin, Lochinvar, and Prestige installation manuals.

I feel it is the best as the boiler always operates with lowest possible return from either the radiant or indirect. Very simple to pipe and it covers all the various pressure drop issues with restrictive HXers.

Stick will all 3 spees 15-58 if you can ,cost wise and they have the checks built in which is needed with the parallel piping set up.

hot rod

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Andy_14

I have two 15-58's now but the trinity manual says I need minimum of a 26-64. That's why I'm thinking the next size up in the 3 speed pumps, which is the 26-99.

Andy_14

Ok, I think I have this about wrapped up.

I will be going with the UPS 26-99(3 speed)pump for the primary and the UPS 15-58(3 speed)pump for the secondary.

The company who did my design got back with me this morning and said I should need aprox. 10 gpm and 10 feet of head for the secondary loop which is my 10 port manifold with 10 ~270' loops. They feel the 15-58 will be plenty for that.

Thanks for all your help!

hr

If or when

you add an indirect tank, thgat circ too will have to be the 26-99. Which ois also a 3 speed these days. Plenty of adjustment room.

hot rod

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