Oversized boiler-contractor coming tomorrow

Mark Hunt

the way that the header is piped now will almost guarantee the block developes a crack sooner rather than later.

No allowance for expansion. As it sits now, it is a "wish-bone". When steam hits that header, it is going to expand. It will rip that block apart in no time.

Too bad this job is so far from me.

Mark H

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Dave Miller

Oversized boiler-contractor coming tomorrow

OK, tomorrow it's crunch time. The contractor's service guy is coming.

You all had quickly determined they did not pipe our new Utica boiler properly (see attached) and then I did an EDR survey and found 275 sq ft. They installed a 472 sq ft PEG187C and we have hissing, gurgling, knocking, surging and uneven heat problems.

I plan to insist they take the 187C out and install a PEG112C (rated for 281 sq ft) with piping exactly matching the factory recommendations in a civilized, non-confrontational way.

My questions are:

Am I on solid ground with this position?

Approx. how much more would the 187C have cost them over the 112C from the distributor (I don't want a refund, just curious)?

Since he will have to schedule a replacement out a ways, should I insist he skim and clean the present boiler as the water is very dirty?

As before, thank you for the speedy and professional response.

Dave

Unknown

do the \"concractor\"

do the "contractor" know he's being "posted" on this wall? Every boiler installalion must be cleaned and skimmed and re checked for water condtion...

Ken_40

Here's what we have:

A boiler that is nearly twice what's needed.

Improper near-boiler steam piping.

Improper equalizer and no Hartford loop.

Noise, inconsistent heat, priming and surging and bottom line - uncomfortable heating.

The installer's people will deny anything's wrong. They will make you sue them, if you haven't given them the final payment yet.

What state and town do you live in? Are installation permits required? Was the job inspected? Did it pass?
Do you have a feel for "small claims court"?

Let's hope the "Find a Prfessional" sction resource atop this website is NOT where you found these folks.

The boiler's oversizing could be countered by removing a few burner racks, but the piping MUST all be redone. The manufacturer's piping schematic is absolutely the minimal dimensions needed to make the boiler function as designed. Oversizing any pipe diameter is perhaps beneficial, but not essential.

And yes. All steam boilers must be cleaned by chemicals, skimming and/or both.

Any member of your family/friends attorneys? Sometimes a formal letter can do the trick.

If you didn't use a "Find a Professional" as your source contractor, perhaps you could do so now to find someone to back you up who IS in fact a real pro.

Most important of all; do you have a written contract? If so, tell us what the fine print says...

The odds of this contractor making good on these issues are as likely as me winning the lottery. Possible; but not very likely.

I hope for your sake I am dead wrong.

Brad White_9

Ken-

Great list; I concur.

Hate to bring in attorneys but having one in your pocket is sometimes a good thing.

I would hate to see what you would write if the contractors were from Europe though....

:P

Weezbo

you have a few more problems than an

oversized boiler contractor.

the header is non existent... and the system should be cleaned long before pumping a new boiler into the existing System.

i am sad for you . what you thought you would have is definitely not what you got. the contractor may have never seen a steam boiler or read a book on dry steam condensing energy efficentcy maintenance ....buy Dans new book and let him look at the pictures then mention that the Library here probably has some useful information just for him.

Dave Miller

Ken's lottery odds

Thanks Ken for the detailed reply.

We are in Skaneateles NY (Fingerlakes area of NY near Syracuse) and no professionals are listed within 100 mi. For pro advice we have to rely on you guys.........

We did not get a permit and I don't know of any code or inspection requirements.

No attorneys among family or friends and the written Retail Cash Contract we have says:

"the Seller agrees to install the equipment in a good and workmanlike manner" (His only requirement)

We paid in full after the installation was complete in May and test fired once. We then noticed our problems last week as the weather changed.

I hope you win the lottery soon as it will increase our odds of becoming happy steam heat customers again...........

Thanks again,

Dave

jim_72

oversized

Ken you said " oversize can be compensated by removing a few of the burner racks".I am oversized 40% and spoke to 2 new york pro's on this site who would not downfire my boiler or anyone else's .They stated " The risks WAY outweighted the rewards"! Have you done this with positive results?

Ken_40

I know the area.

I doubt there are any enforceable codes, or inspectors to enforce it. I would double check with NYS Consumer Affairs however.

"Workmanlike and professional" may be all you have to hang you hat on. The common meaning of "workmanlike and professional" certainly implies following the manufacturer's installation manual. It also implies expertise in the field of endeavor involved. To oversize a boiler by non-scientific means would also go to the two claims of competency as expressed in the words you saw on the contract.

As you already suggested, be nice, but firm. I would call the Consumer Affairs first thin tomorrow, before they show up and get a "read" of what your rights are. Double check and see if license is required. Any leverage you can muster will give you a position of strengh.

Good luck!

Unknown

I`m with..........

Ken and Weezbo on this-one, be nice and don`t "lose-your-cool", hopefully their solution(if any), may surprise-you!! I remember seeing those pics, and it makes me sad for you too! Good Luck!

Unknown

wondering

We Wallies are wondering what happened when the "contractor" come back to the screwed up job?

Dave_4

what happened today?



I believe in New York that False and deceptive trade practices fall under the NYS Dept. of State. Their # is 518-474-0050 and your local (Syracuse) # is 315-428-4434.

http://www.consumer.state.ny.us/clahm/clahm-falseadvertising.htm

This "may not" fall under this category inasofar as the courts go, only because the contractor can counter and maintain "they didn't know"(I know, pretty silly but I've seen it happen). The bottom line is, you can't fix stupid (the contractor). Is is quite apparent from your post that the installing contractor not only didn't know how to size the/a boiler, but can't follow the manufacturer's installation instructions, nor their own written proposal stating "the Seller agrees to install the equipment in a good and workmanlike manner". Lets face it, if they knew how to size it, do you think they would of paid hundreds of dollars extra for the equipment(instead of the correct size), not to mention the additional weight, piping and other materials needed.

Why not find a competent installer (possibly recommended by a manufacturer or one who has been throughly checked out), see if you can sell the current boiler (possibly to them), cut your losses and install the right sized and piped one, learn a lesson and "move on'.

I wish you allot of luck resolving this for it would seem you have a up hill battle ahead of you. In the future I'd recognize two things.

Realize your own limitations

and

Hire wisely

Let us know how you made out today or if you need additional help.



Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Miller

What haooened yesterday.........and will on Fri.

First, thanks to all for their interest, support and professional advice. Gonna have to buy some more bricks!

I took Dave, Ken and Weezbo's advice and had a civilized but firm meeting with their "Installation Manager". By referencing Dan's "Lost Art" book and some of the responses from my newfound "Wallie" friends, I was able point out all of the issues without any denials from him. I even gave him my extra copy of LAOSH, which he seemed to appreciate.

He seemed puzzled by the sizing issue and asked whether his boss (one of the 2 owners) had actually measured the radiators.

Anyway, he took my "Boiler Issues" resolution sheet, wherein I specify the installation of the proper size Utica boiler (upstate NY mfr) and piping according to the mfr's recommendation, and will discuss it with the owners.

We will probably have to wait 'till Friday for the outcome. I will keep you posted...............and thank you all, once again.

Dave