Old School Skeptics

frank_25

...I would LOVE being your age [again} lol

Ross_7

Old school skeptics

Just curious.. Do you folks ever get critized by some of the older retired plumbers about some the materials & methods that we use today. Such as condensing boilers, the use of pex, and plastic DWV. I had one giving me some flack on Friday at work, (he was visting at our shop)about the use of aqua-pex. You know the type. It's not that I don't respect the plumbing elders, and a lot of them embrace the newer technology, but some of them are just bull headed, and they don't respect you as a craftsman. I can run copper with best of them, why not use " smarter, not harder" as a motto? This is also the type that still sees you as an apprentice, no matter how many years you've been in the field. You know the type. Anybody else know somebody like this? God Bless

Ross

kevin coppinger_4

you going ...

to get that no matter what you do for work.....the "we never did it that way types" IF we payed to much attention to them we would all still be doing cast iron bell and spigot for all our drainage and galvy for water....just smile and keep going. kpc

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Ross_7

Thanks!

Thanks Kevin, for the words of encouragement!
Ross

Gary Reecher

Well you could always ask them if they used bored out logs for water pipes as the Colonials did. Times and materials are always changing. Some for the better some not. Would much rather have pex water pipe in the wall than galvanized, copper or CPVC.

Tim Gardner

The new methods have advantages and disadvantages, and even if you are correct that the former outweigh the latter for the particular job, you probably agree with the old cuss more than you disagree. I don't think you need to try to convince him you are right. Just agree with him about how this new plastic s##! and wax nostalgic for the advantages of copper while you continue to install the plastic. Complain about how in the old days a guy could earn a living installing copper. Likewise, the condensing boilers come with all this new-fangled technology. How's a guy supposed to learn it all without a @#$!ing phd in physics?

It may be that one of the reasons that they are critisizing the new stuff is that it undermines their value as an expert. It does not feel good to be an expert in outdated techniques nobody wants to hear about. Ask the old guy questions about copper or steam or whatever. Your best chance of winning his respect is if he thinks you actually care about what he has to say. Who knows, he may know something you don't.

gerry gill

just remember,

not only do you have to know all they know, you have to keep up with all the new advances since they retired..in short, you're responsible to know more than they do..not taking anything away from the old timers, just obvious tho,..look at something as simple as faucetry..they had to know kohler, standard, crane and a few others ..you do too..but you also have to know grohe, klm, hansgrohe, and the list goes on..see what i mean..maybe not today, but when your his age you will have had to learn about many more products, methods etc than he did..

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Ross_7

Ready to listen & learn

> not only do you have to know all they know, you

> have to keep up with all the new advances since

> they retired..in short, you're responsible to

> know more than they do..not taking anything away

> from the old timers, just obvious tho,..look at

> something as simple as faucetry..they had to know

> kohler, standard, crane and a few others ..you do

> too..but you also have to know grohe, klm,

> hansgrohe, and the list goes on..see what i

> mean..maybe not today, but when your his age you

> will have had to learn about many more products,

> methods etc than he did..

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 360&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Ross_7

Ready to listen & learn

I am always ready to listen & learn if someone has something constructive to say. Therefore, you don't receive the banner of a "smart ****, know-it-all, kid"
Tricks of the trade are always welcome. This guy wasn't being helpful at all, just being an ****.
Ross

frank_25

someone mention my name?

I guess you guys are talkin' 'bout me! "Old school", huh? How 'bout "learned the hard way?" instead. I broke in with oakum and hot poured lead joints with XH cast iron; copper tube was a mith, everything was threaded; plastic was what your kids toys were made from; ya roughed in bathrooms with gal and drainage fittings, ya know the recessed ones that were available with 11 1/4*, 22 1/2*, 45*, 60*, & 90*. Any a you guys remember Tucker, Kafer, Sisson & Kennedy fittings? Hardly anyone now knows how to make a "crooked" thread with the ole 65R so you could pitch the pipe, or roll it out of plum to meet conditions. It took a day then with a helper to do what one guy with a saw and a can of glue can do in less than half a day now. Those were the days that once a fitting was installed it better be right 'cause ya couldn't slip it out or loosen a clamp to turn it or replace it. Look at the old boilers installed so many years ago, needed two bulls to move one section into place. Now the whole damn thing is pre packaged into a suit case. What I'm getting at here is the weights were back breaking, the installs were hard. We were born during the wrong time. Technoligy was not the same then. Maybe it didn't even exist. Now I'm not opposed to movin' on. What bugs me is too many of the newer bunch of people in this trade expect every job to be perfect conditions and self installed. They balk at hard work and hell-hole conditions. I've told every single helper and mechanic I've come across that I don't expect you to do anything that I haven't done. But in over 40 years on the job, there ain't too much I've missed. Some newbees don't know how to respect the tools. Some times when I have to have my box on the job with me, they'll use a screw driver instead of a chisel [I didn't know you had a chisel] or cut wire with tin snips [it's only a few cuts], or leave the wrenches in a puddle of water [a little oil will clean 'em up]. That's when I read the riot act in no uncertain terms. Yeah, I'm old school awright. So ya better give me what I deserve. Respect. bwdik?ijap

Ron Schroeder

Ross

I once had an older Plumber that was like that and although I could talk to him about the weather when it came to boilers I avoided any talk I could, one day he called me because he had an oil burner he couldn't keep running, well I found the problem, he fixed it and after that I was the only guy he would let work on his own equipment. They are not all bad but as time marches on sometimes they are stuck in their old ways. nd they also have a lot of knowledge if you can seperate the wheat from the tares.

Ross_7

Old Timers

There are a lot of old timers in the local that I get along with great. I ask them questions about things that I run into out in the field, because I know they've been there and they probably put it in. I help them out when they need it on the newer technology or boilers. Fellow craftsmen helping each other out young & old.

Weezbo

better a strong reproof than praise unwarranted....

the suprise is when your actions speak louder than your words. few "old Timers" fail to notice craftmanship and quality.

Timco

You see this alot in the electric trade as well. Old salty dogs tell apprentices they cannot do what they just learned in school. This is exactly why continueing education is required to maintain a journeyman's licence here. Theorys, codes and materials change...and our foremen need to be on top of it or $$$ will be lost doing it the old way when newer, cheaper means are available...If a customer specs copper, I charge accordingly after suggesting pex.

Tim

Leo

Each Personality

You have to deal with each person as they are. You may be speaking to the Great Craftsman of his day or the Biggest Hack of his day. People like that I just let talk, an argument accomplishes nothing but a conversation can be very interesting.

Leo

Al Corelli_2

AMEN Brother!!!

Ross_7

Good Point, Leo

Point well taken, Sometimes people forget where & when they started. Remember, someone had to teach the old timers, too! I think that some of them forget that sometimes.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Frankie-

Nobody where I work knows what a 65ris and when I show them how to cut a running thread or a crooked thread they won't do it because the 65R is two heavy for them to pick up.

Some of the new stuff?? The verdict is still out on some of it.


ED

mtfallsmikey

Way to go Frankie!

I'm another one like you. And, being a 3rd generation plumber/tin knocker/HVAC type, I'm glad some of the tools and methods have gotten easier. I'm just glad I have lived long enough to see this happen, but the real deal as you say is the attitude of some younger tradesmen. It's ok to use new and improved materials and tools, but don't forget the lessons us old-schoolers teach about work ethic.

Josh_10

Try being my age and employing guys older than your father! That's tough!

Josh

John Barba_2

My dear old departed Dad...

...was a crusty old timer. When we started using a computer for the business, he had nothing but disdain for it. "What the hell do you need that piece of junk for?" he said. While I was complaining about it, my dear--and still with us at 91--mother told me about the time back in the early 40's when my Dad bought an adding machine for the business-- the old mechanical type with the paper tape, push buttons and a lever to do the adding. My GRANDFATHER, in his old school Italian wisdom, said "What the hell do you need that piece of junk for?" And he used to take the tape and add all the numbers by hand, just to make sure the machine was right.

I'm sure when your old timer was a young timer, some REAL old timer was giving him hell about what HE was doing. As Mufasa said, it's the circle of life.

JMB

Cosmo_3

I'll never forget

The first Time I installed a Weil Gold gas boiler in my sisters house about 15-17 years ago. My old man was ready to tell me that he didn't want me in the business anymore if I was gonna start installing **** that don't work. Never mind I had spent the time researching the product, and talking to contractors that had already installed it. Just because he had not yet seen them in customer's houses they had to be worthless. Now mind you it wasn't a MOD/CON or anything, but it actually saved them $ compared to the old atmospheric 1950's boiler, and it is still purring today without a single no-heat call.

So there Dad....

Cosmo

KAG

Ah the old days

"COPPER" That's not plumbing we uses to use brass now that was craftsmanship. Brings back memories. But, I did learn alot about craftmanship from the talks with my boss's father a "DEAD MAN" now. He tought me to be proud of my craft and to learn as much as I could. Yes, sometime he seemed condinsending, but it was his way of teaching. Not to long ago I was one of those "good old day boys" that thought many of the new trends where going to make it easier for the home owner to do his own plumbing. Then I realized that the Jacks of all do not need a excuss to hack thier way to incompetance , they'll do it if they can save a buck. Granted it took them 3 days to reset a toilet.

Listen to the old timers they are just passing some deadman's knowledge on. If you listen closely you will hear them tell thier tale. Then after you listen ask them if they want to watch the game in black & white or HD.