Initial Failure Rate of Modern Electronic Boilers

Constantin

... between the hilarious content, the fake e-mail address, and the identity theft, my guess is that we have a flame-baiting troll on the loose.

The message above vividly illustrates either the authors complete inability to string a single coherent German sentence together or the risks and perils of using online translators. Either way, the results are pretty embarrassing for the troll.

Better luck next time! :-P

Perry_2

Initial Failure Rate of Modern Electronic Boilers

Just currious how often this happens: Right out of the box - and it doesn't work.

My new Vitodens 200 always trips on flame failure. The Mfr rep was here for startup and spent several hours dismantling and inspecting things before declairing that their had to be a defective item or circuit boad. He will be back latter today with a bunch of spare parts.

A cold shower and a cold shave is a great thought provoker. At least I have extra blankets and can bundle up in the house.

I know that their is always a small number of such initial failures - just wondering how often this occurs.

A related question is that certain brands may have higher initial failure rates than others. Any comments on this.

Have a great day.

Perry

Ken_40

The manufacturer's rep?

What happenned to the installing contractor?

Given that you have to go to the alter of the manufacturer with these so-called "wonderful" euro-based units, and attend special "training schools" before becoming one of their "marketing partners - and installers," logic would suggest you're in touch with the wrong guy?

Cold showers are possible with any maker's equipment.

Having to go to the man-rep is NOT the norm. Why won't the installer help?

Guy_6

Failures

First let me say up front that I do not work for Veissmann, and as a matter of fact, work for their competition.
The failure rates on any of the electronic based products is actually fairly low, but you have to keep in mind the following things that may cause them:
1) Poor grounding
2) For lack of a better term, an "oops" when wiring. The older more mechanical controls could be a little more forgiving towards wiring infractions (for a moment). The joke was that these controls actually ran on SMOKE, and if the smoke came out, they were done. These controls were also usually on the truck and would be easily, discretely replaced if an "oops" happened. The electronics are so brand specific that it is not financially feasible to keep a selection as truck stock.
The older controls also could afford a technician the ability to see what failed and trace it back to the cause. Most people in the field (myself included) have a hard time visually diagnosing a circuit board.

Failures will happen, but they are USUALLY provoked in some way. It sounds like the manufacturer has stepped up to the plate to make things right.

S Ebels

Hmm

The only Vito I had fail to fire was the first one that we put in (with HO assistance) He had run the vent through a soffitt and didn't have the pipe sections connected properly. It was returning exhaust gas to the fresh air intake on the concentric pipe.

I've found that regardless of manufacturer most "DOA's" are caused by installer, not equipment malfunction.

Check the vent, gas pressure, wiring, grounding expecially, and the programming codes on the Vitotronic control. Sit down with the Start-up manual and go through all the steps. I'll bet you'll find it. Let us know.

Perry_2

The Installation Contractor

Is new to these boilers - which is why the Mfr rep was here. As such, the Mfr rep could help the installation crew with tips, and show the installer how to startup and service these units. He stopped in at the start of the job to provide tips and answer questions (beginning of 1st day). In the middle of the job (end of 1st day), and then came back for startup (mid afternoon on 2nd day). Note that I also installed an indirect hot water heater and moved the boiler location across the basement - so it took more time than usual.

In this case - where the unit did not work, the Mfr rep could then show how to troubleshoot issues - and do a few advanced things that most installation contractors would perhaps not know - even if they were familiar with the boiler.

Finally, he will bring back the necessary parts and help the installation contractor.

Is this good service. If you were new to a brand of boiler - is this not the kind of help you would want?

Perry

Perry_2

Wiring was the first thing checked

It is all new back to the breaker box - and checked out OK. Proper polarity, neutral, and grounding was checked with one of those plug in recepticle testers. All OK.

We even plugged it into a completely different circuit (via extension cord) and had the same problems.

I will note that the Mfr rep indicated that the specific failure code most often occured due to reversed polarity in wiring - so your general comment is in agreement with his.

Perry

ALH_4

problems

Is this LP or NG? Particularly with LP, the Vitodens is sensitive to low gas pressure. Did they check the polarity between the boiler and the power module? It's all european after the power module. Had that problem once, but it was with a custom panel and the problem was my own fault. Sure there is flow through the boiler? What fault code do you get?

-Andrew

Ken_40

Considering I am not

a big fan of euro-boilers in general, and the wildly exageratted claims of how superior they are to all the others, you alone must judge your "experience" on your own terms.

Given that this particular maker prides itself in only allowing well trained and completely brain-washed (as to he alleged superiority of the product over everyone else's) contractors to use their fabled network of "wunderbar" installers, I'm amazed a "common/ordinary" contractor was even allowed to get near the unit, never mind install it!

Most likely, he just got through one of their brainwashing "classes" and you lucked out in getting him as the installer, because it was his "turn" for a manufacturer's "lead" book?

Whatever the reasons for the reps involvement, most are very well trained at marketing, but from my own experiece, NOT well trained in the diagnostics and troubleshooting expertise you apparently require. Have no fear. Much of the overpriced price tag of your equipment covers a staff of real experts who will rush in to save the day.

Trust me. Writing about your grief here will, have all the euro-boys attentively rushing to your aid before nightfall.

Bad press, especially here at The Wall, makes their sphincter do the mambo. You'll have three phone calls from corporate before noon! At least one suit and a tech wizard flown in from the Fatherland will be at your door before Steve Ebels and Paul Pollets (the local "Wall" poster boys for Viessmann) can write a retort!(;-o)

I'd love to hear how it all pans out. Let us know please.

LarryC

Side topic Receptacle testers

Receptacle testers can be fooled easily. I prefer using a meter to verify a properly wired outlet. The small slot is the hot, the large slot is the neutral, and the hole is ground. 120VAC between hot and neutral, 120 VAC between hot and ground, about zero VAC between neutral and ground.

120 VAC should not be less than 110 VAC or greater than 130 VAC under normal circumstances. The 0 VAC should be less than 1 VAC in residential buildings and less than 4 VAC in most industrial settings.

Larry C

S Ebels

Nice Ken

Real nice! We can always count on you for constructive critique.

BTW, I never did hear of the resolution to that vent problem your guys had with a Vitodens......What was up with that?

Ken_40

Not here...

Not now.

It runs and runs well, despite the collapse of anything resembling tech or customer service from the manufacturer, Viessmann.

Over a cold one I'll tell you how it went. Bottom line, my worst fears were confirmed. It's all about marketing, nohing to do with quality products or standing behind them.

subcooler

Simply Amazinger

More power to you Ken.
Isn't it something that the principals of combustion are universal. Noboby gets an exception to the rule, but people think that if it's Foreign, for some mystical reason it will run better.
Now that I am on the right track, the same thing goes for Wilo circulators, Caleffi stuff and the list goes on.
Why do people think that these products defy the rules?
I always prided myself as being in the mechanical industry and always felt good about knowing the difference between a actual improvment and a sales job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ron Schroeder

Its not that they defy rules

but I no longer drive a Model-T either. I don't totally diagree with Ken but I also think some the the new stuff is an improvement.

ALH_4

Attitude

Attitude is everything. Any product can be seen as inferior if the viewer has decided it is inferior before looking.

If we reject everything European we no longer have condensing boilers. Is there an American boiler manufacturer making their own condensing boiler, including the heat exchanger? As far as I know there is not. Even if there was, it would most likely be made in China.

We all have our preferred method of doing things. Cast iron boilers and hot water baseboard work fine.

-Andrew

joel_19

Ken

Ken once again I am stupified by the irony of your excellent well written prose.Which in style shows a high level of inteligence that is completly lost when one looks at the context.

You seem to mock those who attend seminars to become familiar with new equipment. Yet if you had taken such a course you probably wouldn't of had all those venting problems with your own Vitodens install.

The customers unit didn't light,things go wrong. However the Rep is helping the customer and assisting the contractor which is a good thing isn't it? Or perhaps I'm too brain washed because I think the glass is always half full.

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ScottMP

Ken .... Pal

If you look for something hard enough .. you'll find it.

Euro Boilers .. lets see Munchkin; desiged and the block made in France, The Ultra ... Euro design.

Viessmann wants to stand at the top, let them. They diffenatly build quite a product.

Scott


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Ken_40

I agree.

Their poor marketing skills aside, they do make a nice piece of equipment, and for the buck they charge, they damn well should!

Ken_40

You're not getting any of this...

Are you?

Were the product half as good as the marketing effort to make us buy it a reality, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We are perhaps a lot closer to each other than you may imagine.

Ray Landry

I've had a few bad boards on the Buderus GB's, broken fame sensor, disconnected wiring in the internal wiring, but it was all easily fixable. Tech support for Buderus and Viessmann are second to none in my opinion. Training is requred for any advanced boiler/control it shouldn't be frowned upon. Perry it sounds like you've got a top notch installer and the installer has a top notch rep. Best of luck to you!

www.rodenhiser.com

Mark Hunt

Vait justa minit fellas


Ken Secor has NEVER said that Euro was junk. He never said that. All Ken has ever stated is that "Euro" is not "Utopia".

I won't bore you with the story of the THREE smashed Vitocell 300's I got before receiving one that was only slightly damaged. I also had a Vito that began to spit water the moment I filled it. The pressure indicator had been damaged at the factory and leaked. I fixed it.

Now, truth be told. I have not sold an atmospheric vented, gas, hot water boiler in 10 years. Got nothing to do with "Euro", just the laws of physics.

Ken's post was nearly prophetic. A bunch of people scrambled to protect the company's name. A couple tried to discredit Ken.

Fact is, people all over the world make mistakes and sometimes a bad egg gets laid. Choices are, admit it, fix it and move on or deny it and kill the guy that pointed out the bad egg.

KEN SECOR FOR PRESIDENT!

Mark H



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Mitch_4

american built

Utica / dunkirk's are made in the USA. Casting in Wisconsin

Some controls are overseas..but the boilers themselves are American.

And that is the only one I know

Perry_2

And the fix was.... Incorrect factory wiring

Everyone on the concept that this type of problem occurs due to having the polarity reversed was right.

The polarities were right in the recepticle (and we checked with a voltmeter after a comment above on how the recepticle testers could be fooled).

Chased it down to plug 40 being wired wrong by Viessmann - they reversed the polarity with the miswiring.

No parts needed; but lots of fun to be had by all.

If Viessmann is reading this - the contractor would like nice jackets and hats for the grief... The homeowner (myself) would like to have the domestic hot water tank donated...

Now maybe I can get 4 hours sleep before going to work - knowing that the house is slowly warming up and that I do have hot water.

Perry

Ron Schroeder

Glad it all worked out

time and persistance sometimes is what it takes

ALH_4

wires

I'm surprised that the rep, who originally thought it was a polarity problem, did not fix it within 10 minutes. Viessmann could certainly color the wires differently instead of just putting a "1" and a "2" on two black ones.

Glad to hear it's finally up and running.

-Andrew

Perry_2

It was fixed in 10 minutes

It just took 6 hours to get their.

I am also somewhat surprised that the rep did not think to check it beyond the proper wiring of the recepticle.

Perry

Michael_6

Wow, I don't even know where to begin. Perry you start out by posting a huge negative about failure rates of certain equipment and then name the best made unit by the most advanced manufacturer as being the culprit.

Then you proceed to bash the rep who by your admission tried to help and then actually showed up in six hours and trouble shot it in 10 min.

There is also the chance the installing contractor had reversed the wires (not saying that is the case) but something the rep would not bring up because the point is moot. With a simple pair of testers and the extensive wiring diagrams that come with the equipment(which all Viessmann parts are very well numbered and clearly marked) the tech could have found the issue himself. But when he did not is not great to have a competent rep be so helpful and find it so quickly!

I know the Viessmann rep in our area RST, from the owner down to everyone who works there always goes above and beyond to help in any situation.

If you had bought a top of the line German auto from a dealer and brought it back in six hours and in 10 mins they fixed your headlight that was wired backwards would you then suggest that that manufacturer should send the dealer some new suits and you a Vesper scooter for your pain and suffering??

We all know what negative critism can do- if you waited a day your post could have read: I purchased the best piece of heating equipment possible and had a small glitch, the manufacturer's rep was right there to help out THANK YOU. Looking forward to my many years of dependable service and fuel savings.

And to all of the Ken's out there keep up the good work. There is nothing better than going in to a consultation with a potential client after they have met with a Ken. They do all the selling for us the more they talk ( and man do they love to talk) the better it is for us.

So Thank you Ken.

Supply House Rick

Ken is a HERO!

If a manufacturer's rep or supply house rep has to help you with your install you didn't do your homework. Last time I looked IO&M manuals are clear and concise.

Manufacturer's Rep job-provide materials to wholesalers. Wholesaler's job-provide materials to contractors. I don't remember Mark ever calling me and asking "how does this work?"

Rick

Ken_40

Thank you, both.

I wonder how long it would have taken Perry to get any heat or hot water, had this thread not appeared on The Wall?

Back a few years ago, when we got the wrong Vitocell, then had a unit delivered with a dent in it, and had to send it back as well, we found the Vitodens boiler install was problematic as well.

The rep said things were fine with the venting array he sanctioned and signed off on, and which, was sanctioned by the supplied installation documents as well. When the thing crapped out four times in five days, we asked for assistance from the wholesaler, who summoned the rep, we were left holding the bag for almost a week. After having no D/H/W for much of that time, the homeowner helped by writing a scathing note on The Wall and all of a sudden, the Fatherland responded with not one or two, but three suits and a tech, all of whom were summoned by the wholesaler to bail out his incorrect sanction and reverse the poorly written installation destructions [sic].

Don't ever underestimate the power of The Wall!

One final observation:

When somebody blames a manufacturer for a product problem, the manufacturer, or their rep, writes back and explains the realities and either fixes the problem or somehow resolves the issue, themselves. However, when somebody blames Viessmann for a product problem, they have legions of reps, factory personell, "sanctioned" installers, and hired guns, that all seem to rally round the corporate flag, blaming the installer (unless he is one of the chosen few - and even then suggesting the entire house is wired improperly)?

I am altering my old saying to this newer caveat: "Great marketing will always overcome product shortfalls, and in a ratio of roughly 2:1 (;-o)

subcooler

Sad itsn't it

What was the difference between the mid 20th century and Now? That the great machanical industry submits to sales instead of the product that they sell. And to make matters worse the mechanical tradesmen in the field can't tell the difference. Ouch, thats gonna leave a mark.

ALH_4

V

Viessmann's instructions do seem to be written by Germans for Germans in English. The manuals are very technical, but at times not that human friendly.

I would commend any company that responds to a problem with the entuhsiasm that you describe.

We did have a fairly steep learning curve with the Vitodens when they initially became available, however. There have been some problems on Viessmann's part, there were some problems on our part. Once we learned and worked through some of the indiosyncracies of the Vitodens, and worked with Viessmann to resolve the problems, installations were nearly trouble free. I do not see this as any different from any other boiler of this type or manufacturer. We assisted many installers with their first Vitodens. I remember one occasion in particular where I spent a half hour on the phone with the contractor while he started his first Vitodens (or any mod/con) up, and by the end of the conversation it was running. Yes, from time to time there was the occasional problem, but we as the supplier took responsibility for assisting the contractor with whatever problems he might have. If something went wrong, we took care of it. That streamlined the problem solving process a great deal. Wholesalers in general have no idea what they are selling. It's just another boiler to them.

Viessmann does an excellent job of delivering a quality product. No, they do not do things the way other boiler manufacturers have done in the past. It's not the past anymore. I'm not sure I would say their marketing is any better than anyone else's.

-Andrew

Supply House Rick

Yes! But Viessman offers Speedos

To the bike riding crowd...

ALH_4

Yikes

That explains the haunting image of Mark H. in a Viessmann speedo that I can't get out of my head.

-Andrew

Perry_2

It took the rep 6 hours over 2 days to find the problem

Unfortunatly - you completely misunderstood my concept of 6 hours.

The rep worked for 4 hours on the boiler late Wed night (dismantled and checked all kinds of things).

Promised to return the next afternoon with parts - and did return the next evening with parts.

It took another 2 hours of changing parts and checking this and that - before it was discovered that their was a simple wiring mistake.

Overall I believe that Viessmann makes good equipment.

But it took their rep 6 hours of troubleshooting to find the wiring problem. As posted above, the very first thing he checked was the recepticle wiring as his comment was that normally that failure was associated with miswired recepticles.

Note that the installation contractor did not reverse these wires. This was the way this plug was wired right from the box. I was there the entier time (even helped on a few things where an extra hand was useful) - and one of the things I did was connect some of the wiring while the installers cut and soldered pipe. All that was done with this plug was plug it into the appropriate spot; and reassemble/tighten down the strain relief connection. I believe the rep was their at the time ensuring that all the connectors endid up in the right spot before anything was ever powered up.

Perry

Perry_2

I actually feel that I got great service from the rep overall

If you read my post above I believe that the Rep provided really great service overall. Their is not anyone installing Viessman boilers in my area. The rep worked with me and my contractor of choice to assist in this project. He showed up at the start of the install to assist and provide some direction to the installers; he answered questions by phone on the first day - and even picked up some missing accessories for the job and delivered them to the jobsite later that day - where he proceded to answer more questions. Then he came back for final wiring and startup of the boiler.

Any of us could second guess why he did not think to check the wiring through the power supply and into the boiler - but he did put in a lot of effort trying to determine why the boiler was having that failure - and did return with new circuit boards and other parts.

I have not known many reps who worked so hard to solve a problem. I suspect that he had never seen out of the box factory miswiring before. I'll bet he checks for it next time their is a similar problem.

In my original post in this thread I was currious on how often out of the box problems occured. The answer I got reading various responses was that occasionaly they did occur; but not real common. That is a great answer - overall (I know that everyone has occasional failures). Other people suggested that often the problems were created by the installation. I have no doubts that is true.

Becasue I knew people would like to know what the problem was I posted that it was factory miswiring - which is the truth; and that their was some frustration on both the contractors and homeowners part due to how this all played out. The contractor had people here for an extra 6 hours while the troubleshooting occured. Yes that comes with the territory of being a heating contractor, but considereing that it made 2 very late nights and other disruptions I understand why they would like to get something...

As for my request... their is more to that story than I'm willing to put into this post at the moment. Another time perhaps - although perhaps best told in person. But here is a tidbit: The installation contractor was not on a fixed bid - but on a modified T&M agreement. Guess who gets to pay for all those extra contractor hours... Me.


Perry

t.schanbeck

true accountablility

Actually I've never met a rep that has recently installed equipment he was rep'ing........ but.....
If the product is engineered so good, and only quality materials are used, the highest levels of control are in place during manufactureing, and each and every unit is performance tested completely, before it is shipped.
Then, why does the installer have to provide "free" labor to trouble-shoot or repair DOA or obviously defective equipment on start-up or failure within weeks?
Where is my compensation for over-riding product confidence then? Where do i go to get paid for, in many cases mandated, company loyalty then? How does any of this, Lost time, money, or customer feel good, show up in MY wallet ? or do I just design a certain amount of failure (parts & labor)into each and every quote ?
Have fun guys...

Mark Hunt

Not me


That would be Steve Ebels.

We shouldn't mention it though. He is bashful.

Mark H

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ALH_4

i see

That would explain the red cheeks.

-Andrew

Steve Ebels_3

Careful there Brother Hunt

You post that pic again and I'll....I'll......probably laugh just as hard as the first time I saw it.

Makes me think of FfP's tome......."naked, I am no longer in demand".

Mad Dog_2

HE's BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Ken. Mad Dog

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Bob Sweet

Done

I didn't realize Ken, was Ken Secor (different post name than before) but ya gotta love his passion. Can I vote absentee??

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