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Burnham MPO vs Buderus G115 - The straight poop please.

S Ebels
S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
I have never had anyone object to the noise to the point where they wanted it quieted down. Many time the noise can be mitigated by giving some thought to boiler and barometric damper location and placement.

Frankly I think a Riello on a 115 is a match made in Heaven. Apparently many others do too because when I was at Riello for Training this summer, they literally had pallet after pallet of F series burners painted Buderus Blue.

Comments

  • John Oakes
    John Oakes Member Posts: 1
    Burnham MPO vs Buderus G115 - The STRAIGHT POOP PLEASE

    Am about to have a new BBHW heating system installed in a new house in Maine and could buy either the Burnham MPO or the Buderus equivalent, perhaps G115, to be the boiler of choice. The local dealers of each separately tout their own respective product. There is NO independent rating agency (like Consumer Reports) that gives an unbiased opinion based on frequency of repair. So which is better, please, and why?
  • Maine Ken
    Maine Ken Member Posts: 531


    Which one is recommended by your Heating Professional? That speaks volumes. I would have no problem with either. However I would more than likely go with a Viessmann!!!

    What are the options you have been given? controls, resets, etc...?

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  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    have you ever installed either ?

    Are you a G.C.? , if so, what was the numbers on your last blower door test? Does your energy rater suggest that you are Platinum level in the Leeds ratings? and what is the amount of heat loss that you need to consider?

    never having met a bad boiler just poor decisions i would say there are some definite benefits to both that dial them up and away from many other choices. then again when you are talking about base board ,control strategy enters into the equation... comfort in a new home is a quality that can come from utilising the best products and strategies flying in the right formation.

    *~/:)
  • Todd_12
    Todd_12 Member Posts: 55
    Actually - Consumers Digest

    Just rated the Weil Mclain Ultra Oil the best buy for an oil boiler. This is in Consumers Digest October 2006 issue.
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,981
    Todd,

    They also rated....The Renault F-5 (Le Car) amongst their best in the early 80's.

    Hindsight being 20/20...I bet that there are better advocates to take advice from, like the installer...and his familiarity with the supplied equipment? JMHO. Chris
  • buderus

    i would go with the buderus boiler. Both are three pass boilers but the buderus comes with a reillo burner and the option for the logmatic with outdoor reset.

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  • patrick_29
    patrick_29 Member Posts: 17
    Buderus

    Go Buderus with 2107 Control/Riello Burner.
    bink
  • Dave_4
    Dave_4 Member Posts: 1,405
    MPO

    I've been using a few of the MPO's and like them alot, they are both great products from two very reputable companies. The MPO has built-in low temp protection and the G115 does not, I just figure for the same money why not get the extra benefit. Just my 2 cents.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    I can't comment on the MPO

    I haven't installed or even seen an MPO yet. I frankly don't know of a distributor that handles Burnham in my area.

    We have installed a goodly number of 115's though. It's an excellent boiler anyway you slice it. With the 2107 or without. We've had zero (0) problems with them AFA the boiler itself goes. They're efficient, a breeze to clean, you can adjust your flue temp by moving the baffles....just a very well thought out piece of equipment and Buderus has probably made a gazillion of them. Can be a little noisy with the Riello but it's a killer combo for efficiency. I have yet to dial one in and hit less than 85-86% on the combustion test, most are 86+.

    Look first at how your installer says he's going to do the job. Ask about shutoff valves, pumping away from the PONPC, advantages of outdoor reset or outdoor reset with indoor feedback. (That's a sweet setup on the Buderus)

    Remember, the most important thing you are buying is the knowledge and skill of the installer. In the end, it's 80% his skill set and 20% the product itself that will make you happy with your investment.
  • J.C.A._3
    J.C.A._3 Member Posts: 2,981
    Steve,

    The MPO is a fine product.The stradegy is the same as lots of boilers in its class and would fare well comparetively,and sized appropriately.

    I love the concept, and completley agree with it, but like you, I'm less than satisfied with my local supplier, and THAT draws the bottom line.

    I like the salesmen and most of the products that they carry, but am highly unimpressed with my treatment at their counter and in their office, so I go elsewhere.

    Maybe some lessons to be learned ? I think so.....But I'm just a humble "cellar dwellar"...what do I know? Chris
  • Supply House Rick
    Supply House Rick Member Posts: 1,404
    Todd

    Can you please post that article...

    Rick
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Consumer reports

    Most of their rating comes from the AFUE rating which we all know is 95% meaningless in the first place and doesn't reflect real world applications.

    Of course they would rate it the highest since it is the only condensing oil boiler they "tested" that I know of. Not a valid comparison.
  • D107
    D107 Member Posts: 1,849
    Ever used the muffler buderus sells to reduce noise?

    I've heard people say the riello is noisy. I gather the muffler goes over the breech piping. How noisy is noisy? We're talking the F-3 model I presume.

    Thanks,

    David
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Back to Johns Post

    You have two fine pieces of equipment.

    A Poor installer can screw either one of them up.

    Shop the installer !!

    Take the product he likes to install.

    Scott

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  • Ron Schroeder
    Ron Schroeder Member Posts: 998


    Both are excelent but I lean toward the Buderus due to a little easier cleaning and lower standby loss. Personally, I prefer Tekmar controls over the Logmatic due to the greater versatility.

    Ron
  • Joe@buderus_2
    Joe@buderus_2 Member Posts: 302
    Boiler choice

    While I'm partial to the Buderus, the advice to install what the contractor is familiar with is excellent advice. A heat load calculation to the home should be done to insure proper boiler size. The burner choice is Beckett, Carlin or Riello. Best to find out which burner your service company is most familiar with. Check out the installer, ask questions, consider outdoor reset and see if any insulation improvements to the home can be done to help reduce heat loss. If there are any questions regarding Buderus, please contact us at 1-800-283-3787.
    Thanks,
  • Bob Murray
    Bob Murray Member Posts: 20


    The G115 does not NEED low temp protection by virtue of the superior cast iron qualities vs. the Burnhams qualities.
  • Cunner_2
    Cunner_2 Member Posts: 47
    differ

    > The G115 does not NEED low temp protection by

    > virtue of the superior cast iron qualities vs.

    > the Burnhams qualities.



    You may believe that, but the G115 install manual would beg to differ, it pretty much spells out that if you are going to encounter prolonged return temps of below 135 you need to use the 2107. The 215 is a different story, it is of the same concept of the MPO. I don't think " Quality of Iron " has anuything to do with it.
  • Cunner_2
    Cunner_2 Member Posts: 47
    differ

    You may believe that, but the G115 install manual would beg to differ, it pretty much spells out that if you are going to encounter prolonged return temps of below 135 you need to use the 2107. The 215 is a different story, it is of the same concept of the MPO. I don't think " Quality of Iron " has anuything to do with it.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Nicely said Joe

    Being that you work at Buderus one would expect that you would be touting your own product in a big way. The fact that you chose to offer general but yet very correct advice to this pilgrim speaks volumes to me about the character of you and the company you work for. A respectful tip of my hat to you sir!
  • can you say distribution tube?

    Bob,

    YOu owe it to yourself to look at the MPO. This new boiler is not your old 7 or 8 series.

    Cast Iron qulaity plays very little into the mix. "Silicone CI" is very nice and does make a great product but the Burnham quality is right up there.

    Not only that but the Burnham also has a distribution tube so you can return low water temps to it also.

    PLUS on the MPO you can get the boiler with a standard control and upgrade it as you want.. or buy the control system upgraded already... all plug and play.

    ALSO the burnham MPO is rated for direct vent.

    I'm a Viessmann man and I love the Pennsylvania CAST, Pennsylvania assembled Burnham MPO!

    wheels

  • As Joe Stated

    I too am a bit biased on my preferences simply becuse I work for Burnham. I chose to instead sit in the sidelines and watch the various posts and opinions. For the most part the posts are accurate in that the MPO does have built-in return water protection where the G-115 does not. I will differ on one opinion regarding ease of cleaning these boilers in that the MPO has rear access plates to clean out the canopy (flue collector) where the other does not. We have had folks get back to us to state that cleaning the MPO takes only a fraction of the time of other boilers out there.

    We currently configure the MPO with the Beckett AFG simply because it performs meticulously with the boiler and in most cases runs extremely well right out of the box. I went to a local job on Saturday where a contractor fired off his first one. Put the instruments on it and got a zero smoke, 11.5 - CO2, 5.1 - O2 and 32% Excess Air. After installing the baffles to get the flue gas temperature down from the mid 400's the efficiency dialed in at 86.8% with a 12% - CO2, 5 - O2 and 30% Excess Air.

    As also stated, the MPO can be equipped with a Plug-n-Play Low Water Cutoff, Auxiliary High Limit and a choice of Tekmar based Reset Controls. Whatever your choice may be, keep in mind the availablity of boiler and burner repair parts and as Joe said the familiarity of the product by the respective installer. He is the one that will need to service it and he should believe in it as much as you do.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Joe@buderus_2
    Joe@buderus_2 Member Posts: 302
    Thank you

    I applaud everyone's effort to become energy wise. I have respect for many of the "wallies" that post here. Thanks to all of the "wallies".
  • Joe@buderus_2
    Joe@buderus_2 Member Posts: 302
    Low return water temperature

    The concern of low return water temperature is because of the flue gases condensing in the boiler, not thermal shock. This is a concern for all boilers that are not considered a condensing boiler. WIth Buderus, a by-pass is recommended if the system water volume is large and a Logamatic or other control (like Tekmar) is not used for flue gas condensation protection.
  • condensing and flue gasses

    Joe,

    Many different boilers can condense at many different temps. There are some oil boilers that can take a 90F return and still have a 350F stack temp keeping the flue gasses from condensing.

    Other boilers (mostly atmospheric gas) must have at least 140F return temp to maintain the higher non condensing flue gas temperatures.

    I do not know the Buderous line and want to know what this boiler can handle. Why do you throw out such a general statement causing nothing but termoil and not mention what your boiler does or does not do compared to the other manufactures mentioned?

    Regards,

    Steve
  • Steve

    It doesn't really matter much if the flue gas temperatures are above 350°F or not. What Joe and I are referring to when we speak of flue gas condensation issues is referencing what is happening inside the flue passageways of the boiler when the water contained in the castings is below its dew point or approximately 138°F or lower. All byproducts of the combustion process contain water vapor. Natural gas just happens to contain quite a bit more than LP gas and oil but is still there in all fuels. You put that water vapor in contact with cold surfaces within the passageways and that water vapor will indeed condense on the iron surfaces. Natural gas flue gasses can contain up to a gallon of water vapor every hour for every one hundred thousand btuh's of input. That's about 40% more than what oil byproducts of combustion contain. The MPO warms up the return water internally before it ever encounters the flue gasses. Hope this clrifies things a bit.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    There are two areas of concern in my book....

    First is the boiler. If the boiler isn't built for condensing conditions, you can rot it out rather quickly with the acidic flue gas condensate. To accelerate the process, simply add high-sulfur fuel like traditional heating oil, it'll eat any patina/rust you throw at it and kill the boiler in no time.

    Presumably, if the flue gases are "hot", the flue gases might only condense for a bit before re-evaporating again, but the damage may be done in the meantime... But instead of killing the boiler HX in the lowest place (where the condensate would puddle) this process will eat the HX wherever its cool enough to allow even split-second condensation.

    Another area where flue gas condensation becomes an issue is inside the chimney itself. Drop the flue gas temp enough and it'll start raining inside the chimney flue. Most chimneys are not built for it, just as most boilers cannot handle condensate.

    I had to insulate all exposed flue pipe in the utility room, for example, as my flue gases when they leave the boiler (but before the baro) run around 250°F and below. Ed had a good chuckle when he saw that my KAOWool/fiberglass combo... but it works... and it's good to 2,300°F so should we have any friendly visits from the fire marshall, I should be OK.

    Nowadays, I see no new traces of condensate on the flue pipes, even during summer operation when the boiler is used the least and the boiler water temp is at its lowest. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be a way to tell the Vitola to cold start. For what it's worth, the combustion test while running on B5 dialed in at 90% with 12.1%CO2, zero smoke. I don't think I'll be able to tickle any more out of Ms. Vitola until/if I retrofit the secondary HX they offer in Europe.
  • Patrick Powers_2
    Patrick Powers_2 Member Posts: 10
    Buderus Pics

    Go with the Buderus G215 and logomatic 2107 control if it is suitable for the size of your house, you will be happy.....If you need a smaller boiler go with the G115 and 2107 controller. As stated in an earlier post anyone can take a good boiler and do a poor install. Trust the person and company that is installing. Go with your instinct.
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