My story...Continued... with pictures

wink_3

NEW DAY

ralman

I just got this camera to post pictures

of the system discussed in a previous thread. http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=39979&mc=38. I am just learning how to use and post them. This is what 6 contractors have looked at and state there is nothing wrong and my system piping is fine. I definitely know that the circulator location is wrong. My questions are an effort to determine what my options are as it relates to repairing what I have or repiping. I am exploring the possibility of a homerun heating system where each baseboard is connected with pex-al-pex back to a manifold. I inquired about this with the contractors and they state I can not run my boiler higher than 160* with pex-al-pex and recommend I don't do anything because the current piping is fine. I have already received a lot of help here and I thought the pictures might make the previous discussion clearer.

Ross_7

Problem

Ross,
What are you having trouble with? The piping is a little scary, but you didn't elaboate what the problema was. You can run pex-al-pex with hotter water than 160F.Give us more info!
Ross

Timco

In photo #4, the exp tank is piped into the optional inlet of a taco check valve, no? Just how does water pressure enter that tank???

Tim

Weezbo

i took a peek at your first pic...*~/:)

guy certainly likes unions:)))...i think the piece of down spout pipe is what threw me....

after looking at pic #2 i think he was trying to make it look as simple as possible and not upset the apple cart on all the minor technicalities.....ya Dont see.

pic numer 3... Are we viewing this while standing on one ear? )

Oh MAn ! )) pic 4.... ha ha ha ha ))


Oh my GWad ;000000 your killin me #5 :::)))))



**** ))


sorry .... it must be my current perspective... forgive me...

please.

i am currently slightly reactive... my apologies....

i am not saying i am laughing at you ...everyone has their turn at the bottom of the apple barrel....regardless of the misery i may be in it is inexcueable.... sorry.

i am trying to clear my head here...my head set is not fully adjusted.... whew...i shouldnt be playing with the computer right now...my parents dont know i am foolin with it....

Ross_7

exp tank

I saw that Timco, but I thought there were other problems. Sorry about the typing errors.

Ron Schroeder

Tim

The two inlets are open to eack other and to the boiler, it will work just fine. I have done the same on an emergecy call, plumber did a repipe and put the Extrol after the check valve, that night you guessed it, water everywhere and I get the call, so I put it in the second inlet until it could be repiped.

ralman

Thank you.

I am weighing my options as to whether or not I should repipe the entire monoflo T system. Most of the problems I have identified with help from discussions here, although there may be more that I am not aware of. The near boiler piping is incorrect, the circulator is the wrong size, the split loop is split incorrectly, two baseboards are nearly direct coupled supply to return, there are two monoflo tees on all baseboards including the upfeed, a downfeed baseboard has no flow through it due to monoflo T's being 4" apart. My questions are what are my options? At what point does it make more sense to repipe to a better configuration or is it worthwhile to make all the repairs to the existing system? If a repipe makes more sense, then what is the way to go? I had 2 contractors at my house, when I asked about repiping with pex-al-pex I was told I could not run higher than 160* water temps through the pex to CIBB. And there was no reason to repipe anyway because they see nothing wrong with what I have.

Timco

Interesting...either port will push the weight up and allow flow, and both inlets are common and open to each other? Never would have guessed it. I can see how the expanding inlet water could expand through the common inlet side to the tank, and opposite. Thanks for the info!

Tim

ralman

Are you saying this is incorrect.

The expansion tank should not be installed into that port of the Taco 222 flo-chek?

Dave_4

Ross Alman

I see three problems (I think),

1. wrong circulator


2. wrong location for the wrong circulator and other componets within the system


3. additional monoflo tees "may" be needed for the drops (BB below the main).





Robert O'Connor/NJ

Ron Schroeder

Ross

it will work that way, just not the normal thing seen done, and if you are planning on going to the pumping away piping then your expansion tank feed valve will be first then your circ and then your flow check.

Hope that helps

ralman

pictures

#1 shows the closely spaced monoflo t's. 6 within a 40" run of 1.25" pipe, separated by 4", 6", 8", and 10" nipples. they are not far enough apart nor are they alternated properly between the upfeed and downfeed emitters.

#2 shows the near boiler piping.

#3 shows where the supply split occurs at a normal 1.5" tee to 1.25" pipe moving away from the photographer towards the next three supply monoflo t's which return behind the photographer on the left side of the loop.

#4 shows the balancing valves that I worry aren't going to last very long. Especially the one farthest away in the photo. Made by Welsbach, brass I think, very difficult to turn when trying to adjust flows and I normally break things no matter how gentle I try to be.

#5 shows the location where I would need to move the 1.5" supply pipe from picture #3 and tee into the line between those 2 monoflo t's where I have the plastic hanging. This would set the system so everything supplied on the right returns on the right, and everything supplied on the left returns on the left.

I think everyone can guess I am not a heating professional, and looking at the pictures you can tell I am not a photographer either.

ralman

Very helpful.

Thank you.

wink_2

new boiler

lets see how it works

ralman

Very nice.

"lets see how it works" Does that mean you haven't fired it yet? It appears to me you are zoning with circulators. I asked in the previous post about repiping my monoflo T circuits. I never see new installation boiler pictures posted here with monoflo T piping. It gives me the impression that zoning with circulators is a better way.

S Ebels

Looks like

A: The point of no pressure change rule has been ignored. The circ is pumping at the air vent and the expansion tank.

B: Removing all the monoflo piping would be a real piece of work in and by itself.

C: The whole house is set up as one zone?

So here's some thoughts

PAP is rated for 80PSI @ 200*F, no problem with using it for your intended purpose at all.

The expansion tank should not be hung of the back of that flow check. You want it and your air vent/air eleimination device to be in a location where the circ is moving water AWAY from both of them not toward them. It's also a good idea to bring your feed water into the system at that point.

With the right manifold setup and home running each, BB you could zone as many ways as you want with the addition of telestat heads.

What problems are you having with the system?

ralman

My perception is

it just doesn't work right, but, I don't know what right looks like. My first house with hot water heat. It is very expensive to operate for the level of comfort it provides. I have been getting help here identifying the issues. A poster named Ken in my thread about monoflo T and pressure drops mentioned pictures. I did not own a digital camera then. I bought one today, and posted the pictures of what was previously discussed. Most of the issues have been identified, I think, just wanted to show pictures in case of something else. The near boiler piping is probably easily corrected, it is the other system design issues that seems like it will be trouble to repair. Is it feasible to repair what I have or would a different method of piping give me more comfort at less cost?

ralman

Also,

what are telestat heads? what is their purpose? I have been doing a lot of research on hot water heating and this is a new term for me.

frank_25

What about...

...the missing BFP, mixing valve, and coil relief? the first item prevents stagnent water from entering your faucets and water main; the second prevents extreme hot water from steamin' out your faucets, and the last prevents things from going boom in the night. bwdik?ijap

Timco

Does it heat evenly, or is one area cold and all else is warm? Does it take forever to heat? Is the boiler always firing, or for short bursts? You can improve the near boiler piping, and fix air problems, and gain efficiency, but cold spots are another piping problem. Specify the exact problems, other than a high fuel bill, and you can be walked through proposed changes. he pictures made all the difference in being able to help you...

Tim

ralman

Thank you.

Those are newly identified deficiencies that I was unaware of. All of these repairs keep adding up, At what point does it make more sense to repipe the whole thing?

ralman

It does not heat evenly due to improper flow as a

result of an undersized circulator improperly mounted and improper piping within the split monoflo T circuit.

wink_3

JUST SBI FOUND THIS

THEY CALL JUST FOR SBI
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c214/wink923/2006_1204Image0682.jpg

wink_3

JUST SBI

NEW DAY

Al Gregory

Changing near boiler piping isnt really going to make a 50 year old mono flow system all better. What you have in your basement is what is in millions of basements today. We know today it should be pumping away and PONPC but what you have now will still heat your home. If the rads and baseboards are heating then the boiler is doing what it is supposed to. If the house has cold spots it is probably because back then no one measured anything. They used to walk in and say that wall can use ten feet and that wall should be covered. You may need to add to or reduce some of your convectors. Have a heat loss done and see what is needed for each room and compare it to what you have now before spending quite a bit of money changing the near boiler piping.

wink_3

mpo

here some pic of a job last year removed one monster and installed a mpo with indirect w/heater

[Deleted User]

Interesting boiler extraction tool...

Whad'ya spend on that? Around $20K :-)

I can think of a few cast iron beasts I'd like to use that on, but fear the stairs couldn't handle the stress.

ME

Perry_3

This actually might not be as bad as it seems.

Note that I am a homeower with a 50+ year old monoflo T system and cast iron baseboards on one loop for a 1700 sq ft 2 story house. I actually have the exact same T's that you have.

I recently installed a Viessmann Vitodens mod/con boiler replacing the original boiler.

First thing: There is nothing wrong with a monoflo T system - and a lot right with them. You don't see them much now because of the cost of installation. Most current contractors do not understand them because they never work with them.

Your house probably could have been adequately heated with just a one loop configuration. However, it appears to have been built with a split loop creating a 2 loop system (with ballancing valves on the return).

Something to check: I doubt that the "T's" are really to close. What you need to check for is where the take off for a specific radiator is - and where the return for that radiator is. In my house not a single radiator loops back before the next take off. Every radiator returns after another - or even another couple of take offs. Of course, that also means that each return occurs after other returns.

To put it simply - in my system you have an arrangement something like this: takeoff to radiator 1, takoff for radiator 2, takeoff for radiator 3, return for radiator 2, takeoff for radiator 4, return for radiator 3 takeoff for radiator 5 return for radiator 3, return for radiator 4, takeoff for radiator 6, etc all arround the loop; with the return for radiator 1 as the last return before the boiler.

Thus, the fact that their are a series of T's closeley spaced does not mean much. You need to determine where each radiator supply and return is. I suspect that you don't have a problem here.

Second: The fact that the pump pumps from the return to the boiler and air vent probably works well. While current practice is to "pump away" the fact is that in low pressure drop systems such as monoflo T systems that it really dosn't matter much. Almost all of these systems were built that way (and my new system is a pump to and not a pump away - and it works just fine).

Now it appears that there may have been some modification to one of the loops - or am I misinterpreting the pictures.

If it were my system; I'd do my best to return it to system as originally constructed once outside the boiler return and supply piping; not worry about where the circulating pump was - and I'll probably work just fine. People often want to make monoflo T systems more complicated than they need to be.

If you have an isolated radiator that does not work - I'd investigate to see if the radiator throttle valve, if you have them, is stuck or clogged - or otherwise ensure that you have clear flow (and no air) in that isolated radiator.

Beyond that you need a good heat loss study and compare it to the size of installed radiation. Click on the link on the home page here to get some free software to do this (it will take a few weeks to get to you). That may be able to tell you a lot about how well radiation was sized for the house.

Look at air inleakage as well. A tight house may solve a good part of your problems.

Additional informaton: I've had two people tell me that I needed to "spilt" my system for it to work "right" and so I could zone the house - complete with two pumps when I was looking for a new boiler. I did nothing of the kind and left my original monoflo T system alone - and my house is rock steady on temperature with all rads warm without modifying a single thing on the monoflo T system - cept the new boiler, accessories, and its controls.

Now you can spend a fortune ripping it out and starting over: or I think you can spend a lot less ensuring you know how it was susposed to work and identifying any specific issues.

Perry