heat loss analysis not used in Canada?

Uni R_2

Tara, I'm not sure about Toronto but Mississauga requires a heatloss calculation to be filed when applying for a permit where the heating system is being renovated.

Did you try McKinnon? www.mckinnonheating.com

Tara

heat loss analysis

hi there,

I posted a question about heat loss analysis and not one company I contacted has come through with one when they gave me their quotes.

So I have to ask again - is this really necessary for a contractor to provide because I've called quite a few of the larger well-known companies in the Toronto area and none of them do it.

I think I will try and calculate it myself, but I am wondering how much I should compensate for a possible future addition, future replacement of drafty original windows.

Thanks,
Tara

GMcD

Unfortunately, No

No, unless the local Municipal or City permit requirements have this as part of their local Building permit requirements, and this is rare. For example, the City I'm in has a requirement that all new buildings meet ASHRAE 90.1 energy performance requirements. There are over a billion $ worth of projects seeking building permits in the last few years here, and I think the one guy they have at the City isn't going to be checking compliance too quickly, if at all.

Here is one good source on the 'net to have a look for more information:

http://www.hrai.ca/site/hrai/consumer_technical_inquiries.html

Mitch_4

Heat loss

Tara.

Unfortunately, it occurs too often that it is faster to guestimate than not.

If you require, here is a good site www.heatload.com, and check with your local building office for permits required, I believe Toronto required a heatloss for the permit.

There is also a good program here. As far as upgrades go, you need to satisfy your current situation, otherwise you will lack heating capacity until the upgrades are done.

Mitch

Tim_33

Without a calculation

it's just a guess. Do you want your family's comfort to rely only on someones guess? What if the "guesser" is an idiot? What if the guess is made to favor the installer over the user? What if....

As one posted, some jurisdictions require heating and/or cooling calculations be provided for project plan review and/or for permit(more applicable to non-residential projects), some do not.

Is it 100% necessary to do a job with a formal heat loss calculation? No. Is it necessary to carry collision and comprehensive insurance on your new car? No, not necessary. But, in both cases, a wise choice.

Performing a block heating only load on a residential building for the purposes of equipment selection is a 30 minute exercise (given all the necessary information) for an reasonably experienced designer.

The guess will have to be based on something. What that "something" is will determine how good the guess. I often will take a guess at the size of the equipment I will need on a project I am designing, before I run all the calculations and document everything as necessary. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm not. I've been designing mechanical systems of one sort or another for almost twenty years and I still can't guess correctly every try.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

size matters!

Two steam boilers killed by oversizing and being replaced as we speak. In both cases, they were twice the size required to match the connected load. Oversizing by such a wide margin not only kills boilers prematurely, it murders operating efficiency.

In both cases, it looks like they simply followed the leader and never left the boiler room.

In more than 50% of the proposals I do based on either connected load (for steam) or actual heat losses (hot water), I find the existing equuipment is grossly oversized. A/C too.

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Tara

Heat Loss calc not used in Canada

Thanks UniR. Mine is just a retrofit so I was told a permit is not necessary. I will check with the city of Toronto just in case and will give McKinnon Heating a call. Did you ever find someone to do your conversion/install?

Tara

Uni R_2

Installers

I have yet to figure out who to use... I'm going full out on the search when I return from vacation. I did receive your e-mail but it spent some time in the spam jail until I was cleaning it up a few weeks later.

I wouldn't be surprised if a permit is still required for you in Toronto. It's $110 or so and a contractor insisting on one is probably a good sign, but who knows? You can go to www.toronto.ca and then look up building permits and them phone for information. Here, the difference for retrofits is that it wouldn't require drawings because you the distribution system isn't being changed.

Ed_26

heat loss calc.

If your contractor doesn't provice a heat loos calc. - then you should look some more- & check about the permit. Do you watch Mike Holmes on HGTV? --- rant,rant.rant! But he's right.

Boilerpro_5

Gee, only 50%

my number is closer to 100%. I usually guesstimate the size of replacement equipment assuming the existing is 60% oversized. I just replaced a hot water boiler that has been in use for 40 years that was 6.5 times the size necessary to meet the load. Had a 680,000 input WM steamer that had replaced a 275,000 unit (it was still there), which I replaced with a 200,000 unit. The gas bill dropped about in half. I believe most typical oversizing increases the fuel bill aabout 15%....I have some pretty good data from a recent swap out which I am going to crunch soon.

Boilerpro

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Dave Yates (PAH)

I'll see yer hundred & raise you....

How's this scenario: 500K steamer with a 197K connected load (which includes a 30% pick-up factor). But wait, it gets better. Stuff it with a 1,000,000 Btu input. But wait - it's an oddity: a commercial boiler by one company and the burner by their competitor!?! - A quick call reveals the two are not compatible. But wait - it gets better. As Emeril would say "kick it up a notch" and set the pressure for 9 to 12 PSI on this old one-pipe vapor system. But wait - it gets better - the condensate centri-pump can't overcome that kind of pressure & the steamin-hot condensate pukes its guts into a floor drain instead & the feed-water tank was riddled with cancerous chankers. Fresh O2-laden water given on each cycle. But wait - it gets better! Toss in two zone valves (1 - 3" and 1 - 2") because you'll be adding a 28K load via a hydro-air unit. But wait - it gets better. Hot wire everything in the boiler room and have the only disconnects be the breakers located at the opposite end of the church inside a locked room. But wait - it gets deadly: Don't clock the meter; don't perform a combustion analysis; and, by all means - smear refractory cement over all exposed flue-gas exit points to "fix" the CO issue that scared the poop out of the now ex-client. But wait - the old 2" relief vent discharge line that went into the chimney was never capped or removed - external corrosion penalty points on the return line. But wait - there was a gas leak at the valve's diaphram that no one detected & it was smellable. But wait - not nearly enough free-air space on the combustion air intake screens as required by codes. But, but, but - just drop any parts you replace (over many years) wherever you like & never bother to clean up the mess. A room full of mechanical mayhem to satisfy even the most discriminating of mechanics who relish unraveling mysteries(G).

And that's just the steam side. Things were just as bad with the large hydronic system too.

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[Deleted User]

Ya gotta love it...

Was called out to a job the other day to give an estimate for a boiler replacement on a commercial building. Asked the manager what made them think they needed a new boiler, "Cause theres water running out from underneath the old one" Pretty good reason, I thought to myself.

I get to the job site, take one look at the boiler and system and tell him that if he replaces what he got with what hes got, that he'll be doing it again in about 7 or 8 years. THe boiler is not leaking water, but is leaking condensation out of the combustion chamber.

History: Built in 1980. Water source heat pumps throughout commercial office building. Cooling tower for heat rejection and RBI boiler (CFT) as heat source. Near boiler piping is totaly wrong. System typically operates around 75 degree F. This boiler was just recently replaced (1999) and has already failed, again... "If you keep doing what you have always done, you'll keep geting what you always got..."

Manger is planning to change out all of the inefficient lighting in the building, thereby decreasing the number of recoverable btu's, thereby increasing the need for addition fired btu's...

Performed full combustion analysis on boiler. Boiler was underfired by 50%. Efficiency about the same, 50%.

We don't need to do no stinkin' heat loss calculations!! Just replace it with what was in there...

Gotta love your alleged competition:-)

They WON'T be replacing that boiler with same, guaranteed.

ME

Tara

Heat Loss Calc not used in Canada

Thanks UniR. I will call the city tomorrow. Someone gave me a number to call to see if there have been any complaints filed against a particular contractor/company which might be helpful to consult as well.

City of Toronto Municipal Licensing and Standards
416-392-3114

Mitch_4

Like UniR said..

a permit is required if the system is being renovated..and a retrofit is a renovation. Check with the city

Tara

Heat loss calc - why bother?

Tim,

I don't have much of a choice as not many of the contractors offer to do heat loss calc in Canada for retrofits. I don't know why they don't do it for residential retrofits here when it seems like all the pros on this site in the States seem to think its necessary.

I'm looking at the specs and BTU sizes of the boilers and some of them have ranges of 25K +/- from one level to the next. In my case for a smaller residential home, does it really require that much fine-tuning if the manufacturer doesn't make more precise sizes that will fall closer to a heat loss calc figure?

Thanks,
Tara

rb_6

Canada - Heat Loss - Source

Brian Morgan
Gary Morgan Sales Inc.
7181 Woodbine Avenue
Suite 233
Markham, Ontario
L3R 1A3
(tel) (905) 477-9332

Brian will connect you to the right people.

Tell him Calgary is now the center of the universe...

______________________

News Flash:

Brian by the way now has a few heavy hitters on the team.

Most Canadians would know them as Peter Kinsey, Paul Miciele and Wayne Bingle.

Doesn't get any better than those guys when it comes to design.

Even if they are in Ontario...

Congrats gents.

Dave Yates (PAH)

I beg to differ....

grandchildren are the real center of the universe!

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Unknown

Heat-Loss

Your absolutely right Tara, in my area of Ontario no-one does it, they all "guess", or go off the old-one. I can`t understand why, but it`s done here all the time. With all the programs available to make it easier,there is no excuse! I`ve always done-it, and you wouldn`t believe the strange looks I get when I start asking about house particulars!

Tim_33

Tara

Within the limitations of how many different capacities of equipment are available, the answer is: No, it doesn't matter if the heat loss is 45,500 btu/hr or 48,200 btu/hr if all that's available is something with 50,000 output. IF the load calls for 50 and the installer uses 150 or 250 is where the problems would arise. A boiler that is too large, costs more to buy and install than it needs to, it will "short cycle" and (most likely) wear out much quicker, and in many cases, will not operate as efficiently as if it were sized correctly.

The reason most of the professionals calculate loads for replacements is two fold. Boilers last a long time and houses get modified. New windows, more insulation, additions, etc. All of these things could significant change the heating requirements. So you check by calculating what the heat load is based on the best information you can get at the time. Secondly, the original installer may have guessed the house needed 150k, and put in 200k just to CYA or because that's what the supplier had in scratch and dent that day, when the guess was wrong. Listen to these guys. 50%, 75% MOL of the equipment they are replacing is oversized.

So, there is no need to split hairs. OTH, guessing can cost you more than you need to spend, and cost you year after year after year...

Jed_2

And this has What

to do with Tara's simple question about her concerns about the proper procedure in Toronto for sizing a replacement boiler for a small residential renovation project? Your posts have nothing to do with Tara's inquiry. Sounds like "soap box ego" to me, even if your points are spot on.

Why can't you people ever learn to keep to the poster's point? RB understands, as well as Tim, et al.

I guess Ego's will always seek another level.

We don't know what Tara's choice of fuel is for this replacement. That might come in to play. Oil? Not much choice, really. Gas, a number of choices.

Jed

Brad White_130

Getting Off The Dime...

Tara- Do you have drawings of your home? Take-off measurements of all exterior walls, doors, glass, roof and room volumes?

Write me off line if you do and if you want me to calculate a heat loss for you, gratis. Maybe that is what you need.

Brad