When are those Germans going to make Hydrogen fuel boilers?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Perry.

Dan_15

BMW to roll out hydrogen-powered 7 Series
Tue Sep 12, 6:33 AM ET

BMW will roll out the world's first hydrogen-burning car in serial production early next year, the German premium automaker said on Tuesday, eager to put its stamp on cars with green credentials.

The specially equipped 7-Series executive cars emit only water vapor when running on hydrogen.

The car hits the market next April and will be shown at the Los Angeles car show in November, the company said. It had said in March the hydrogen cars would arrive within two years.

A spokesman said the car would be leased to selected customers rather than sold because of its high price. Leasing rates would be similar to those for a top-end BMW 760LI with a full-service package.

The BMW 7 Series Hydrogen 7 Saloon is powered by a 260 hp twelve-cylinder engine and accelerates from 0-100 km/h (62 mph) in 9.5 seconds. Top speed is limited electronically to 230 km/h.

BMW has said it intends to build a few hundred such cars at first. They will be able to switch between burning standard petrol and hydrogen so that drivers will not be left stranded while the infrastructure to deliver hydrogen is built up.

"The integration of hydrogen drive in an existing vehicle concept which has already proven its merits in the market paves the way for an alternative to conventional drive concepts fully accepted in the market and with all the assets the customer is looking for in practice," BMW said.

The space that two fuel tanks take up means only the 7-Series will offer the hydrogen package at first. BMW's long-term goal is to offer hydrogen motors in all its cars.

BMW unveiled the world's fastest hydrogen-powered car at the 2004 Paris auto show. Dubbed the H2R, it can exceed 300 kilometers (185 miles) per hour and reaches 100 km per hour from a standing start in around six seconds.

While BMW is developing fuel-cell driven cars as well, it says it is concentrating on the combustion engine because the sum total of its features and characteristics offers the largest number of advantages and benefits all in one.

Christian Egli_2

Thanks for the update, steam is always cool

Hydrogen cars produce nothing but clouds of steam coming out the exhaust pipe. I think that's cool.

Here is a thought that occurs to me. Nefarious green house gases are looked upon with much suspicion by environmentalists. Of course, everyone is growling at CO2, but green house gas no. 1 is... water vapor. The stuff clouds are made of and the stuff the hydrogen car will be putting out as pollution.

It seems, once rid of the gasoline car, the next target in line will be the hydrogen fuel cell...

Honestly, I don't believe gaseous fuels are going to make it. Today, transporting gases is heavily regulated, because it is more problematic than carrying liquid fuels. Absorbing the gas into a solid substrate only adds to the complexity and adds it's own layer of dangers (just like those we face with acetylene bottles, it's not just gas in there)

Not to sound like I am pooping all over the hydrogen idea, I do believe and hope that we'll find the key to nuclear fusion eventually. On top of producing masses of power and heat, all the noxious toxic waste that pours out of such a plant is... water. It will be a hydrogen based fuel.

I saw a thing on TV where GM is also building such hydrogen vehicles. But in the meantime, we're far from being out of gasoline and who will feed all the plants of the world the nutritious CO2 they crave?

Perry_2

Ecomomical storage and transportation is...

still a huge issue for hydrogen.

Don't look for hydrogen powered anything (except a few specialties) for decades.

I did a paper on the production of hydrogen using nuclear power. If the US was building 20 nuclear units a year (we are building zero and don't have the infanstructure to support more than a few a year) - if 20 a year, it would take about 30 years before you started to have enough hydrogen available to replace a significant amount of hydrocarbon fuel. Note that most of the initial nuclear units would be soley focues on electical generation.

We are a long way off yet.

Today, most hydrogen is made from natural gas.

Perry

Brad White_9

Wasn't das Hindenburg

hydrogen fired? I grant some technological improvements since 1937. No modulation on that one, just on, no off.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Professor Frank Krieth

When I attended the Solar World Congress in Florida, Prof Krieth delved into this use of hydrogen vehicles subject that he's studied extensively. During his presentation, he detailed all of the costs involved - from building the vehicles to manufacturing the fuel. His studies revealed that the fuel itself is a "net negative" energy source (meaning it takes more energy to produce than can be returned in its use) unless it is produced by solar or wind energy sources. That was the day I had my hydrogen bubble hopes busted. Same goes for electric vehicles according to the Prof., who had the hard numbers for total eff regarding the production and transmission eff loses associated with power plants.

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Weezbo

Brad,..er... Up Or Down i think are the prepositions you were

looking for *~/:)

Brad White_9

LOL!

Classic, Weezbo. What can I say?

Ranger_2

HHO

Check out Klein water fuel/Clearwater,Florida @ www.hytechapps.com I believe when I was a kid Coates Industries (now Coates Engines)in Wall N.J. were working on this in the late 1970's.

J.C.A._3

I have to admit, I....

Have had that same feeling that Mr. Yates had...just a bit later.

I will let you in in something I saw at ISH last year, and that was a fuel cell boiler, that was (at the time,) in pre production.

Somewhat Hydrogen fueled, but not as effecient as the "normal fuels" to date. This IS going to take some time.

Like Arthur Clarke said...(paraphrased)What the old scientist says will never be found...the NEW scientist is working on, to make it possible. This has proven to be true so far. All we can hope for is that the guys trying to achieve the goals, are properly funded.(I'll bet dollars to donuts that the oil and gas companies AREN'T the biggest supporters of the future fuels, at this time. I'll also wager that the superfluous profits will be PUMPED into the science when the oil and gas flow slows down enough for them to make it ....PROFITABLE!) JMHO. Chris

Mad Dog_2

on...off and...................................................

BOOM! modes.....Mad Dog

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Perry_2

Nope: Aviation gasoline fueled the engines...

Hydrogen was only used to fill the gas bags to float the whole thing.

Oh, the Hindinburge did not burn because it was filled with hydrogen. The dope that they used to coat the fabric is what burned (hydrogen does not burn with normal flames). Investigation reveals that between the dope and the fabric they were getting close to an explosive... Very sensitive stuff..

Perry

Perry_2

Actaully the petrochemical industry is very interested

in the production of more hydrogen for their use from sources other than natural gas... They need it for the mfr of many things and for the cracking of heavy crude oil (to make light oil products from heavy oil you need to add hydrogen).

Their interest was so large that they funded a multimillon dollar study several years ago into the construction of nuclear power plants that would be used soley to produce hydrogen by elctrolisis. If anyone is interested in reading the 4" thick study I can probably find a web link for you.

The study showed how economical it would be once you were past the uncertainties on how to get a new nuclear plant licensed and into construction.

Based on everything I have seen and heard - I suspect that the petrochemical industry will fund several nuclaear power plants for this once the first set of utility plants gets through the new licensing process.

Perry

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Perry. Yes, please give me the web link. That was the topic of one of my best high-school papers of 1981 in "advanced" physics.

Brad White_120

Perry, I was being tongue-in-cheek

With the term "hydrogen fired".

That the engines were aviation gasoline-fired is understood Although I was just kidding, Perry, but your point should be made for those prone to misunderstanding.

The dope and fabric theory (Nitrocellulose dope) is a new one to me. I have heard static electricity and a child's sparking toy as other theories, if not sabotage.

One reason that the Hindenburg used hydrogen was that the US had the market and patents on helium production which we refused to license outside the US.

gary bettcher

browns gas

google browns gas , they have a torch that burns water and you can buy one to solder with. its really neat to see the vidio they have

Weezbo

That is so true *~/:)

whew.. Thanks ...

that was a great change of perspective

Perry_2

It was probably ligtning or some other spark that started it.

Then once started it was burn baby burn. It would have burned even if filled with Helium.

You are correct that the US was not supplying sufficient helium for the german airships to use in general.

In this case though - it really did not matter. There is actually no real problem with using hydrogen for things. All large electrical generators and motors (utility size) are cooled with hydrogen. As long as the Hydrogen purity is up there - it is non explosive.

Hydrogen makes a very good gas coolant; and they were able to get an extra percent or two of power from the same size generator by using it as a coolant.

The hydrogen is then cooled by water cooled heat exchangers (called Hydrogen Coolers). One of the interesting feature is that H2Coolers use a copper fin spiral wound on the tube - and then soldered to the tube. Really cool. Rome Turney - in Rome New York made all the H2 Cooler tubing used in the US and much of the world for decades. I now understand that someone else has built a flow solder machine so they now have compitition.

Perry

Christian Egli_2

Up, down, and no (s)parking problems with that feature.

Did you know?

Our beloved steam heated Empire State Building is built with a spire that was meant originally as a mooring pole for parking your Zeppelin.

That place has all the features we want. Just like the Wall here has all the knowledge we need.

Here in Dayton, in 2003, we attempted the world's largest blimp reunion. We did not succeed because of dysfunctional Ohio weather, nevertheless, the blimps were fascinating to look at up close and inside. The Zeppelin family were rigid blimps and thus, much bigger. The Goodyear machines are a cut way above the rest, from what I saw.

I love the way they take off, and trying to sink back down to earth is surprisingly difficult. Also, floating up and down the Appalachian mountains is a huge headache, you need all kinds of helium tank trucks following you on the ground. The Wright brothers' plane is more practical.

Perry_2

Nuclear Plant information - Hydrogen Production

Mike:

Here is a link to get you started.

Final report:

http://www.ne.doe.gov/reports/NP201TexasGCNFS.pdf

When you are done reading that - then goto this link for a much larger picture of nuclear plant development.

http://www.ne.doe.gov/NucPwr2010/NucPwr2010.html

I am sure that if you read all of those reports you will find many things to search for.

Perry

ps: I dodge nuetrons at work...






http://www.ne.doe.gov/NucPwr2010/NucPwr2010.html

Frenchie

Perry

Just curious, do you work at a nuclear plant? There is a plant in Ohio with the same name as you. I'm sure you already knew that, though.

gary bettcher

check this web site out

http://www.watertorch.com/buytorch/buybg1.html

Bob Vennerbeck

Blau gas fuel for dirigibles...

Der Hindenberg may have used avgas for fuel, but some of the other dirigibles used 'Blau Gas' - ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blau_gas ) to resolve the ballast versus lift problems caused by using up fuel...

Perry_2

I know...

I've been trying to get them to pay me rolaties for using my name; but no success so far. I can't seem to get Perry printing to pay me either...

And yeh, I currently work in a nuclear plant. A lot better enviroment for me now that I have asthma. Pay is not bad either. It's a high pressure and long work hour job though.

My overall experience - as it relates to furnaces - is that as a kid I helped clean and repair coal fired furnaces (anyone need help setting up a stoker?); then off to the Navy where I worked in a steam propulsion engineroom; Co-op'd through college working in power plants; after college I worked in coal fired power plants for a while; worked with a heat exchanger service company for 4 years, a foundry and machine shop for 1, and now in a nuclear plant (actually I was shared between two nuclear plants for a while). My formal job title is: Heat Exchanger Testing Engineer.

Perry

Dave Yates (PAH)

Fossil v electric vehicles - can hydrogen do this?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7352118104883452737

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Brad White_9

Jimmy Neutron

Perry- Some years ago I worked on a pair of Proton Therapy Centers (helium protons harvested for cancer obliteration; Mass. General and M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, which just opened.) My job was process support, cooling the beam line magnets, cyclotron and assorted work in the gantry areas. Walls were often six feet thick concrete embedded with hematite for absorbtion.

I asked one of the Belgian physicists about using lead or depleted uranium (being the curious type I am and having designed LINAC and Cobalt Gun support systems in the past. He launched into a detailed explanation how it lead finally to "neutron activation".

Naturally my jaw dropped in mock horror as I said, "I just hate it when that happens!"

Brought back memories.

John Ruhnke

It doesn't matter................

Dave,

Global warming is going to increase a lot as China, India and other countries become highly industrialized. With the rate of global warming increasing drastically the whole world is going to have to look at things a little differently. As the worlds oceans rise people will begin to panic and rightfuly so. We are going to have to drastically cut down the amount of fossil fuels. Nucular Power Plants is the best answer. Because of terrorists and such we can't make nucular powered cars or houses so the thing to do will be of course expand electricity. And for cars we will have hydrogen power. This will expand into hydrogen powered boilers and furnaces. This will clean up the atmosphere but never again will we burn as much fossil fuel as we do today.

It is not a matter of wether hydrogen is more or less efficient then fossil fuels, we just simply can't continue to burn fossil fuels at the rate we do.

The technology of burning hydrogen will get better and better as more and more use is being done and as more development dollars are spent in that direction. It will match the efficiency of burning fossil fuels, the inventors of the world will solve all of those problems as they come up.

JR

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Cliff Brady

German Hyddrogen Boiler Research

Some links I have been sitting on... old but interesting.

Solar Hydrogen Project at Neunburg vorm Wald, Germany

Test of a premixing radiant burner for the low NOx combustion of natural gas / hydrogen mixtures:

http://www.neuhaus.com/swb/englisch/e13.htm

Operation of 20 kWth gas-fired heating boilers with hydrogen, natural gas and hydrogen / natural gas mixtures:

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:X74yvSLa5xMJ:www.neuhaus.com/swb/englisch/e04.htm+hydrogen+boiler&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=11

John Ruhnke

Wow!!

Dave,

Electric powered cars have come a long ways!

I didn't realize how fast they could be.

I guess electric powered cars may be the thing of the future too.

Hydrogen though could still provide more horsepower then electric. Hydrogen can match equally the performance of fossil fuels, while electric batteries just isn't their yet. I am talking about horsepower to weight ratio. If you look at the video clip the electric car was less then 1/2 the weight of those production cars. The electric cars weight was mostly the batteries. The weight of a 250 horsepowered engine, fossil fuel or hydrogen is still much less then the weight of batteries needed to produce 250 horsepower.

JR

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Perry_2

Not sure about the depleted uranium; but lead is

relatively transparent to nuetrons. The soviet navy acually built and operated liquid lead cooled reactors. There is even discussion about a high temperature reactor to produce hydrogen directly (via heat not electrololisis) - and lead cooled reactors have been proposed for that as well (actually "lead alloy" reactors as many lead alloys melt at a lower temperature than lead: normal tin-lead solder is an example).

So shilding with lead has its limits. Great for Beta or gama radiation (and alpha can be stopped with a sheet of paper or plastic); very poor for nuetron radiation.

Perry