broomell vapor system

Steam Bunny

I reread my post and there’s little question I come across as bad mouthing manufacturers which was certainly not my intent.

For that I am terribly sorry particularly when I so fervently believe the Wall and the participants on the Wall are accomplishing a far greater -long term- good for the industry, its workforce, & its customers than just answering questions.


Vicki

John Boyer

broomell vapor system

posted article recently about charming 3 story home in poconos. sized radiators and added pickup factor came to 543 sq. ft. installed new boiler rated at 542 sq ft. used two 2 inch risers into 4 inch header which split into two 2 1/2 inch mains. front half main was 34 ft, rear main was 33 ft installed one gorton no. 2 steam vent on each main, dry return was sized to 1 inch from each half and increased to 1 1/4 to boiler. there is no receiver and condensor, so installed gorton no. 2 steam vent in 1 1/4 return.
Problem: burner is short cycling have vapor stat set at 8 ozes. visually watch boiler build 8 ozes shut off burner and immediately drop to 0. does system need more venting, if so how much and where.
Problem #2: found radiator on third floor, which must have been after thought, has sarco return fitting and bleeder vent. how will this radiator work properly on this system.
befuddled in PA

Unknown

Pull the radiator vent and plug it

Make sure that Sarco is a working radiator trap.

See if the main vents are hot when it BEGINS to cycle off and on by vaporstat. Make sure they aren't on the supply main, because all of the radiators need to vent through them through the return mains.

See if the radiators are heating all together.

It's supposed to satisfy the thermostat LONG before the radiators stop filling with steam.

Are all of the mains insulated? The pressure drop would be MORE than 8 ounces in cold bare mains, even if the radiators AREN'T full.

If they are, it's doing what a coal-converted-to-oil-or-gas-boiler has to do.

The real question is,"Why is the thermostat cycle so LONG?"

Are the windows open? Is the building insulated? Is someone raising the thermostat?



Noel

gerry gill

also, take the vent off

the return pipe, tempoarily, and see if your blowing steam into the returns..you should see none..also, check to make sure the gorton #2 isn't closed from radiant heat pickup..that will happen at about 130 degrees..nothing wrong with the gorton vent, but you may need to be carefull in its placement..

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Christian Egli

Double trap, double jeopardy

You don’t need a Gorton on the end of the returns. Leave the hole as big as you can.

You did not mention it, but I assume the Broomell radiator traps are still there. There’s no moving parts, but the little hole has to be free of dirt, that way the radiators can vent. Those things are traps like in any two pipe system, therefore, the extra Gorton you have at the end of the returns is a double trap. Make sure the Sarco trap works as well.

In the original system that air hole from the return was shoved into the chimney so that not only would the air hole be open, but you’d be sucking on it to get the air out. The suction coming from natural chimney draft.

Add the little suction to the little boiler pressure and you got a total pressure that got steam moving everywhere, fast.

Without relying on the chimney suction anymore, you might need a bit more boiler pressure than the ½ PSI you have. Probably not though.

Are the supply valves still working with all the little hole openings?

All these problems would cause your radiators to be air bound and cause the short cycling.

The extra radiator that seems excessively far away from the boiler could, maybe, benefit from having a one pipe style air vent in addition to the trap. An air vent would be automatic as opposed to the bleeder.

Good luck.

Unknown

I'm not fond of extra vents on two pipe

I've found that they can vent the return INTO the radiator from other radiators, and the air pushes water ahead of it. Water slugging uphill, if you will. Tough one to get the mind around when you stand there and watch an empty pipe not pass water downhill.

There's a place to vent, and the returns' sizes take that into account.

Noel

Steamhead (in transit)

Agreed

also, the Gorton #2 on the dry return should remain. It will close if steam ever reaches it, which is another level of protection against the boiler running out of water. However, you need to check to see if the Gorton isn't closing prematurely from the heat in the boiler room. Some of the #2 vents have been known to jump the gun here. The fix is to move the vent to a cooler location. If the air can't vent from the dry return, the rads won't heat.

Also check those Broomell water seals as Christian says! Those little holes must be kept clear or the rads won't heat.

Steam Bunny

We may have gotten off on the wrong foot,

for which I apologize, but I think you may have just solved my biggest concern and perhaps a few forgotten ones as well, for which I thank you.

If a system is under vented, wouldn’t the air in the main be just as happy to exit the equivalent of a vented 3rd floor down riser?

In our home, folks from the past not only vented the WET return, they vented many of the 2 pipe radiators as well- lots of them. Several returns, all on outside walls, froze & split. Inspection of the one return, that’s still in tact by it’s radiator, indicates the condensate had no intention of heading to the basement. The 90 degree return elbow is split in such a way to suggest the water was hanging on the horizontal edge, terrified to make that final leap.

It's taken 35 years, I had to become a part time steam junkie, but I think I finally have an answer. And what's really nice, as a homeowner, even I can understand.


Again, thank you!

Steam Bunny

Wanna guess what happens when you convert the 2 pipe to 1 pipe

& tie off, seal, or cap the split return (aka self inflicted venting)?

Yep, it moves on to the next vented 2 pipe radiator & patiently waits for the next record breaking cold spell.

I'm beginning to suspect I might have a showcase home.

Unknown

Manufacturers helping customers

You're welcome.

I think your experience with ONE employee at ONE maunufacturer soured your view of manufacturers. There are at least ten manufacturers on this site helping anonamously, each and every day.

There are also home owners on this site answering questions about why manufacturers do certain things that they have no experience whatsoever with.

Such is life.

I'm sorry that you think all manufacturers are the same. Contractors aren't all the same. Customers aren't all the same. Perhaps one brand name manufacturer has a problem, but to lump all of us together is counter productive.

Noel

Gordon_5

Bromell valves and trap ells

I still have not located replacement valves and trap ells for a Broomell system. Any ideas?

Steamhead (in transit)

You can use

a radiator trap on the return, and a standard valve on the supply. This will get the job done. If the rad overheats, you can add an orifice to the supply valve to slow it down.

BRIANJ

Your Broomell Valves

I assume your valves are stuck because the disks are either damaged or corroded and you can't regulate the heat. I had the same problem and found a machinist in my town who fabricated new disks for me and the valves are working perfectly. If I can be of any help give me a call at 973-303-8306.

Brian

Dave_4

orifices-sources

I have been working on my "really old 2 pipe system" with the "big honking pipe"-By the way the folks on The Wall have really great in helping unlock the mysteries of this system (reading the thread getting to this comment I wouldn't "dis" anyone here. Alot of knowledge, experience and patience)

Now that my system is operating generally like a champ after a couple of weeks of writing to the Wall, I am fine-tuning. Have a couple of newer cast iron baseboards on my two pipe loop run by the suction tee/evacuator at the end of the return at ahead of the boiler. No traps here. They are a bit noisy. Holohans books mention the potential for steam getting into the return and talked about dead old guys using orifices. You mentioned them to throttle the steam.

I am in Chicago. Where can I get orifices for standard steam valves. Also, shouldn't they be on the return valve?

Any help is appreciated

Dave_4

orifices-sources-Screwed up attribution

somehow the last posting went up as Ryans. Have no clue why. Correct address is as above.