Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
lost sale
Rollie Peck
Member Posts: 47
The smartest thing I did prior to replacing my hot water heating system boiler was to read lots of entries on The Wall.
I learned that the most valuable thing in the process was a knowledgeable contractor. I paid more money up front but saved a ton of money and avoided some serious problems later on.
I think that pictures of the kind of work that you do, the tools that you use to do the job right, the supply of parts that you maintain and the training that you get and do can be a big influence on us homeowners. A "Brag Book" if you will.
If a homeowner insists on the cheapest job instead of the best value, you are probably better off without his business.
Rollie Peck
Homeowner
I learned that the most valuable thing in the process was a knowledgeable contractor. I paid more money up front but saved a ton of money and avoided some serious problems later on.
I think that pictures of the kind of work that you do, the tools that you use to do the job right, the supply of parts that you maintain and the training that you get and do can be a big influence on us homeowners. A "Brag Book" if you will.
If a homeowner insists on the cheapest job instead of the best value, you are probably better off without his business.
Rollie Peck
Homeowner
0
Comments
-
lost sale
here is the story . iwas at work today when i heard that one of the guys i work with lost a boiler job to a cheaper bid. not the end of the world but it kind **** that my buddy went through the entire process of sizing the system sitting down with the customer disscusing all the options that were avaiable to them and then left them with the price for the work and let them think it over. anyway a week later my buddy calls them back to see what choice they made and finds out that he lost the bid to another company (dont know who) i was just wondering how most of you guy deal with similar situations after you have aready done all the trouble of sizing the building giving the customer all the info they need and then having the customer go with another company . i just wanna avoid it in the future if i can.0 -
bids
I'll give you a homeowners perspective. We are replacing our steam boiler and I would like to get two bids, both from reputable contractors (one is via the gas co). I don't see anything wrong with that; isn't that competition? Of course, I hand them a sheet indicating the sq. ft. EDR and the items I want installed, so there isn't as much legwork for them. Both are going to bid out Burnham IN8's (they both install Burnham; apparently W-M has lost favor around here; it used to be the dominant mfr.) BTW, we are grateful that we have two (and only two) contractors in this area who will still do residential steam. If you feel we are wrong about getting two bids I sure would like to know the reasons why. Best regards.
Postscript: If we lived in an area where we could hire someone from "The Wall", (i.e., Steamhead in Baltimore), I doubt we would get two bids. In this case, we don't have a firm handle on the contractors knowledge of the subject matter and we feel it adviseable to talk to both.
Bob Winzenburg
North Mankato, MN0 -
I always recommend that anyone I give a bid to get another company to come in and give an estimate. I am all for competition, but when the homeowner does not give me a list of what they would like to have installed, I have to sit and explain everything to them from what needs to be done to what everything does so they know for their own good. After all that, they have someone else come in and say, 'uh yeah, we can put it in for you'. It gets me thinking about what this other company would have recommended if anything except whatever would fit through the door. As far as the utility goes, the homeowner is better off not calling them because I have seen more under/oversized boilers installed by the utility company than any five companies put together. But then again, you seem like a very well informed consumer and probably would have not needed such attention and you would have already known what type of company we are and not needed the extra bids, which is usually the case.0 -
I should add that I would expect to pay something for design work, such as asking for a bid replacing the steam system for a hot water system (which, of course, I would never do
0 -
Don't leave the paperwork
We NEVER put the size of the boiler (or furnace) on our price sheet. Of course we put it on the proposal but not until they're ready to sign. We go in with finished computer drawings to show them the process we go through but they doesn't have the size on them.
If the unit is going to be smaller than the existing I mention that we're able to cut it almost in half or something like that but I don't ever leave the paperwork behind. When they ask for it I tell them that our design expertise is one of the biggest things we have to offer and it's not theirs until we're working for them.
In the last 2 years we've done this I've had one customer say they wouldn't work with us because we wouldn't hand over the paperwork first. Were they telling the truth?0 -
bids
i give verbal bids to start with after doing a full heat loss i do not tell them boiler size till i put it in writing if customer wants it in writing before he gets other bids or asks for boiler size or heat loss in order to share with the competition then i know thier price shopping
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
BTW, drop the word \"bid\"
It implies an auction and in this instance a reverse auction. If you're a professional use "proposal" or "quote". If the customer asks for an "estimate" tell them you've been in the business long enough you don't give "estimates". You know what the costs are so you give firm quotes. Say it with a smile (whether you're in front of them or not). They'll get the point.
Did the guy you work with ask for the job? Most of us don't. Often times that's all it takes. And you may have to ask more than once. Fact is most of us, I unclude myself in this, are darned poor salesmen.
One last suggestion. After the presentation and you've asked for the job, shut up. Sit still. Let the customer utter the next words regardless of how long it takes.0 -
Why would you do that??
Recommend they get another bid?? Do you want the job or not? Are you going to do the best job for them or not? Is it in the customer's best interests to buy from you or not?
Frankly, I'd be estatic if there were NO other HVAC contractors close to us. Ain't goning to happen but it's fun to fantasize.0 -
From the other side of the fence
As a homeowner, I've had contrators come over and told them what I was looking for, never got a call back with a bid. They probably didn't like me asking questions and saw that I knew too much and didn't want to bother with the job. Fine. But I think everyone has been taught get at least 3 bids. Which means 2 guys have to loose out. Just part of the business.
When I got 2 bids for equal configs, and one is a grand cheaper and actually gave me a Phase III TR series indirect while the pricer bid only offers a Smart series, what would you expect me to pick?
Most jobs are probably swap out replacements. There's not a whole lot of "design" work there. You probably don't need to do a heat loss until you get the job anyway, right? You'll probably put in a similar size or smaller boiler unless they're doing an expansion. So your bid should actually drop if your heat loss calc only requires a smaller boiler.
Now conversions and new radiant installs are a whole different game. Here I think someone can always under bid you, so you have to sell your expertise more then the total cost of the mechanicals.0 -
value vs commodity
which are you selling??? While there is a great deal written on this very topic - "Just add H2OH" puts it succinctly. Our clients focus on value - and it's their percieved value not mine or yours that will ink the sale. We too strongly suggest our clients shop around, and talk to our other very warm and comfortable customers, tour about and look at the systems, etc. It's just good business ... and it's good for the consumer.0 -
Always sell value. Never give away anything. Especially information.
Some guys try to "look smart" by telling the prospective customer why things need to be changed, and picking the job to death pointing out details.
We just get in, measure, and give a price. Can't waste time. If they want a detailed heat loss, they pay for a detailed heat loss. Why should I give my labor away for free? Do you know any lawyers or accountants who give time for free? Do you get your gas for free? Your insurance?
Offer a quality product, and people will pay for it.0 -
Uncle Mel always said
"If your getting everything you quote you're too cheap"!
I have found that 60-70% of customers will buy a higher priced system IF THEY ARE CONVINCED OF THE VALUE AND YOUR EXPERTISE.
Case and point: This is not a residential job but the above statements still apply, maybe even more so. We were invited to "bid" a boiler replacement in a county courthouse/library complex near here. They received 4 different bids. The contractors were allowed to propose their own ideas for the boiler and associated work.
Two contractors proposed leaving the old beast in place and setting a new copper tube type boiler alongside it. Neither was quoting anything other than what piping changes were needed to retrofit to the new boiler. Both were going to use the existing flue, a 46"x46"x40' tall monument to the art of brick laying. One quoted a 1.3MMbtu two stage and the other quoted a 1.6. Neither did a heat loss or anything other than a cursory look around the boiler room. I was told neither one even looked inside the building to see what type of radiation the boiler was connected to.
A third contractor, a very large mechanical firm, quoted a nice CI three pass German boiler with ODR control. They too were using the existing flue with no mention of a liner in the quote. Their quote was for a 1.5MMbtu unit using an off the shelf power burner that was not tested by the boiler manufacturer. They did not do a heat loss or offer to remove the old boiler either.
When I went to look at the project, I spent the better part of a day there measuring the building for a heat loss calc and measuring all the radiation (fin tube cabinets) to calculate the connected load. I found that the heat emmitters were capable of about 650Mbtu at 180*. Total. HHhhmmmmm. I hunted down the maintenance guy and talked with him for a while, then asked if I could inspect the old boiler a little and have him fire the beast. When we opened it up it was obvious that the old girl was dying a slow death due to condensation in the tubes. Several had been replaced and when he asked why it was happening the door swung wide open for me to explain what was wrong, what should be done, what equipment should be used and why.
I photographed the condensation "tracks" running out of the flue tubes and used them along with other pics and drawings in my proposal.
I spent another day typing up 11 pages of information on what I wanted to do along with doing a heat loss for the building. Remember the other quotes were all for around 1.5MMbtu? The actual heat loss was 589,000 at design temps. I gave them four options in my proposal ranging from $32,000 for an atmospheric two stage cast iron piece to $56,000 for a Viessmann Vertomat complete with a control, full mod burner, repiping the boiler room and taking out the old beastie. (All 7,800 lbs. of it.) I explained in detail why they had constant air problems in the radiation. (Not pumping away and poor air elimination system) I even brought a bottle of Coke to the bid meeting to illustrate what's his faces gas law. The look on the other bidder's faces was priceless when I did that.
Bottom line, they took my proposal for the Vertomat. Mike G from Viessmann was just out today and did the startup with us. My proposal was over 20% higher than the next closest one but they were convinced it was a better deal for them. And it was
Now go back to the top and re-read the two opening statements.
Stick to your guns and do it right or don't do it at all. Let someone else do the low ball jobs and live with the consequences. You'll be happier for it!0 -
Thanks
Thanks to all who replied on this topic. I see some very valid points on both sides, which has brought me to change the way I will deal with customers in the future.
"The facts, ma'am. Just the facts." ~Joe Friday, Dragnet0 -
Ahem,
My eybrows raised on a couple of your points. Number one is the statement "Most jobs are probably swap out replacements". I have found that more accurate verbage would be, "Most jobs are treated as swap out replacements". I have to say that I have not run across a single boiler replacement job that couldn't benefit from some combination of piping updates and changes, a different control strategy, properly sized circ, a pressure bypass valve etc. Not ever. Period. If I see something like that it goes in my quote regardless of whether the customer has asked for it or not. You see, when a major piece of your heating system is replaced, you expect everything to work, Right? Very few customers realize that their boiler is but one component of a complete system.
Number two is "You probably don't need to do a heat loss......" Uh Uh, no way. How can you as a homeowner expect an accurate proposal unless the contractor does a heat loss up front. Granted, with modulating burners there is more of a fudge factor but as with combustion testing, if you don't do it, you don't really know, do you?
Sorry,......... it's the oldest child perfectionist thing in me I guess. It's like a birth order defect.0 -
NOT a bid but a solution
Solutions solve problems, bids quote prices.
Nice work.0 -
> My eybrows raised on a couple of your points.
> Number one is the statement "Most jobs are
> probably swap out replacements". I have found
> that more accurate verbage would be, "Most jobs
> are treated as swap out replacements". I have to
> say that I have not run across a single boiler
> replacement job that couldn't benefit from some
> combination of piping updates and changes, a
> different control strategy, properly sized circ,
> a pressure bypass valve etc. Not ever. Period. If
> I see something like that it goes in my quote
> regardless of whether the customer has asked for
> it or not. You see, when a major piece of your
> heating system is replaced, you expect everything
> to work, Right? Very few customers realize that
> their boiler is but one component of a complete
> system.
>
> Number two is "You probably don't need
> to do a heat loss......" Uh Uh, no way. How can
> you as a homeowner expect an accurate proposal
> unless the contractor does a heat loss up front.
> Granted, with modulating burners there is more of
> a fudge factor but as with combustion testing, if
> you don't do it, you don't really know, do
> you?
>
> Sorry,......... it's the oldest child
> perfectionist thing in me I guess. It's like a
> birth order defect.
0 -
That's it !
The "oldest child perfectionist thing" !
I KNEW there was a name for it, and I COULDN'T be the ONLY one !
THANK YOU ! 0 -
A few more points to consider.......
As a homeowner and 2 decades of sales experience you may want to consider:
1) Referrence List of Homeowners, Suppliers and others you feel will give you credibility.
2) Pictures of jobs explaining what you did. Helps homeowner understand what you are capable of by providing a solution... adding more credibility.
3) Be upfront about availability. Creating a sense of urgency lets them know that you are busy.
4) Ask how soon they want it installed. Gives you an idea of their urgency.
5) Share with them any accredations you may have: Credibility.
6) Heat Calc. : IF this takes time and resources I might hold off until you get a commitment. IMHO.
7) You may even want to be the last firm to submit your "solution" and ask if you can sit down with the HO and explain the differences in your approach. Doesn't hurt to ask if they will show the others quotes. Because "what you don't know" usually hurts you the most. If you are twice as much but are offering a entirely different solution, you need to be able to explain to the HO. A cheap price may only appear cheap until you can explain otherwise.
8) Years in business.
Just my 2 cents.
0 -
Silence is golden at the right time
I have spent well over 30 years selling. When I finish my presentation, I shut up an let the customer have time to think and/or ask questions.
I also ask if there are any other questions they feel the need to have answered. The next step is to answer the questions and then ask when they would like us to start the work.
As you can see I use an indirect question to get the Yes. It seems to work, as it gets them thinking when they want the work done, and not if they are going to buy.
A positive responce here is the time to slide the agreement over for them to sign.0 -
lost bid
as a homeowner I never go with the lowest bid. I just had my boiler replaced and I went with the guy who knew the most - cause I don't just want a new boiler - I want The Guy - and his expertise - so my system is set up properly and kept running well.
This guy spent a lot of time measuring each radiator and room (and all the while I'm thinking why didn't the other guy do that). He's giving me an education (that's how I found this site) he suggested I buy "You've got steam heat" (I did) and explained what was needed and WHY....
Did the same thing when I got estimates for my new roof - not the cheapest, not the most expensive, but they guy with the most expertise. (the roofer also gave me a good, better, best choice - I liked that a lot)
The customer who is looking for the cheapest price - you man not want to have.0 -
ljh
A lot of the homeowners reading this particular thread would do well to follow your example. You did some research, you got involved, you asked questions and most of all you are astute enough to realize that you are not buying a commodity type product.
You are a wise and prudent person. Here's hoping your new system gives provides year after year of trouble free, economical comfort. I'm betting that it will.0 -
How about a good faith deposit?
Ask for $100 to do the load calculations and properly sketch out a solution plan. The tire kickers will walk away (less wasted time, less undesirable clients). The ones that don't know you take things seriously.0 -
Ahem II
The "Smart" series IS a Phase III, i.e. Smart 30, Smart 40 etc.........
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I didn't say it wasn't
But a TR-36 costs more then a Smart40 (both 36 gal units), and I got it as part of the lower bid.0 -
Beware the Manipulative
I have been selling for my entire career. There was a period when I worked for a company that was not afraid to be manipulative in its sales process. A consultant was brought in to teach us "closes" - "my pen or yours," , "small agreements" blah blah blah. I found I did not sleep as well when I used a technique like this, and decided that the clients I want are those that will respond to an up-front, direct sales approach. It is very critical for me to remember that I am offering valuable products and services, and that sales in its best format is win-win. A customer that responds to hard-sell tactics may have buyer's remorse in a few months when they hear about a cheaper competitor - a customer with whom you enter into a genuine partnership will defend your higher prices. So, consciously deciding to use an indirect question instead of a direct one doesn't fly for me. Explain your offering, differentiate yourself from the competition, then ask for the business.
In our company, we also sell features and benefits - a system, not its components. We do not provide a parts list that can be shopped. We also go through a multi-stage sales process. To deal with our time investment in design work, we bill for design and provide throrough documentation of design. Upon completion of design we offer a proposal for installation. We used to credit half of the design costs back upon acceptance of the installation proposal, but have decided to forgo that. An architect commented that the practice of crediting back undervalues the design service. So it is also importnat to talk about the value that design brings to the table - how proper planning saves time, money, and resources and ensures that the installation works as intended. Design then also becomes a very useful tool for us - generating parts list from CAD, mechanical room layouts, air vent locations, solar collector mounting details, and other critical items that are often decided upon in the field, and may derail the installation flow.
Hope this helps.
Boaz0 -
lost sale
If the customer knows more then I do about heating systems I explain to them since you are smarter then then I am not the guy for them
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
salesmanship / gamesmanship
This has been an interesting thread. I believe I have a unique perspective on it because I have owned several businesses over the years where selling was involved and my sales skills in particular made the difference. I'm retired now, and am here because I wanted to have an old boiler changed out for a high efficiency model and chose to use the Internet to educate myself, quickly found this site, and was so impressed I bookmarked it.
First to my experience. I sold computer networking systems before most people even knew there was such a thing. I replaced mainframes and minicomputers with faster and more agile networked systems. Doing so, I built up a reputation as the go-to-guy. I always had competition, and would have been bored to death without it. Did I lose business? Certainly! Did I regret it? Rarely!
Fact is, if you know your business, are good at, and stay at it long enough, you'll build up a reputation. That reputation will carry you a long ways. Someone here said they wished they were the only game in town. Forget that! Competition is what keeps us sharp! Without it, we get complacent, stop doing good work, and the reputation dies.
As a homeowner (landlord actually) wanting a boiler changeout, I've had 3 different contractors out to the apartment building in question. The first one specifically ignored my request for a more efficient boiler, and recommended a newer version of the same POS that I have now, just not 50 years old. I told the owner what happened with his sales engineer and why I was unlikely to do business with them. He thanked me and said he had heard similar things through the grapevine, but no customer ever called to explain why they were going elsewhere except me.
The second contractor got hostile on the phone when I got "too technical" with him. Sorrrryy! I come from a technical background, learn new things very quickly, and ask technical questions to educate myself and gauge the acumen of the sales engineer I am dealing with. So in response to Mr. Wallace, I am sorry if my IQ of 178 makes me too smart to be your customer [note: I have had no dealings whatsoever with WallaceHeating, just making a point].
Finally to the one who will get my business. He was intelligent, articulate and certainly knowledgable. However, the most important characteristic he exhibited was his ability to LISTEN when he was done talking. He said I made him "nervous" because I rapidly assimilated his information, and added input for modifications before he had thought of them. He didn't try to turn it into me vs him (an ego thing), but understood (rightly) that this is a kind of partnership to accomplish the task at hand in an efficient and practical manner. Isn't that what we all want, whether we are the consumer or the producer?
Just my 2 cents worth.
0 -
carpedatum
i was being sacastic yesterday i looked at replacing a warm air furnace that is 40 yrs old customer wants me to clean rust out of heat exchanger and replace gas burners he got info off the web that suggested that a 40 yr old furnace was worth keeping since he has a college degree he knows more then i do
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I call those guys "frugal", to be kind. They will always have more money saved than I will. Hope they enjoy it.0 -
carpedatum
very well written sir0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.3K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 90 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.4K Gas Heating
- 100 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.4K Oil Heating
- 63 Pipe Deterioration
- 917 Plumbing
- 6.1K Radiant Heating
- 381 Solar
- 14.9K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements