B&G's vs. Grundfos/Tacos for new install

Heatmeister_2

I hate to belabor this install but I am still getting some conflicting recommendations on my install configuration from several local cotractors. Attached you will see my old dead WE HE boiler w/ B&G's. The original home owner used to own a Hotel whence all the overkill with the BIG B&G pumps for my 3 zone system running a 2600sq. ft. home.

My 3 zone monoflow system with (1) 1 1/4" copper pipe outlet pipe feeds Copper Fin BB. I guess the zones branch off but all return with separate lines and pumps on return. The current B&G pumps are (1) at 1/6hp and (2)at 1/6hp.

For this refit, should we:
A) Rip out all the old B&G's and repipe with everything with 3 newer grundfos.
B) Same as (A) except use one pump on the return side and install 3 zone valves.
B) Leave Piping and pumps alone and slap in a new boiler.

I am still undecided on boiler style but leaing toward condensing. The two other points are that I plan on adding some staple up in a few rooms and plan on being in this house for a very long time. So, we wanna do it right.

Also, will a spirovent(sp) help when bleeding air from my monoflo system???

clammy

depends ON $

I would not use zone valves and probaly go with 3 grundfos brutes and place them on the supply and yes to that spriovent this may require some repiping but with pumps on the suplly you should only have to in a worst case only bleed a few rads instead of all of them .The reason for know on the zone valves with one pump is that the mono flow tee system has alot more resistance then your baseboard loops and will not get adequte flow when the less resticted baseboard zones call plus if your gonna do some radiant you'll most likely going to need a pump for that .it really seems that it up to the HO and how much they wnt to spend to be comfortable if they want cheap just slap in a new boiler and leave them with the rest of the junk and remind them that replacing just a boiler isn't going to solve any other system promblems that they currently have and that going cheap only cost more as time goes by peace clammy

thp_8

to circ. or not to circ.

a) one circ. b) zone valves. c) if you have air problems, it's in the piping: flow (velocity) these high dollar air vents are like putting perfume on a pig.

RonWHC

Those appear to be

HV pumps. No one would spend the extra $ for them if they were not necessary. Yes to moving the pumps to supply. I would check the HV curve to see if the 3 speed Grundfos can match. You might want to consider a B&G PL Pump. A reliable alternative to wet rotor.

John White

replacement

I'm confused...why wouldn't you use ALL Taco? Taco is the company who has everything you possibly need...Zone Valves, Air eliminators, circs, flanges, air vents, etc. etc.
And guess what...
It's made right here in the old USA. Best stuff available.
Why would you not bundle great products and patriotism?
Just a question, I guess??
jw

Al Corelli

Some of the new Taco air eliminators are made elswhere. Italy, I think.

NICE stuff.

Tony_23

Hello again

Are you saying that you have one supply line and the zones tee off that outside the boiler room ? I've seen old monoflo systems zoned that way, and you also said the prior owner had a hotel and that would be common for that also.

You need to measure the longest possible pipe that the water needs to flow through. This will give us an idea about head resistance of the piping and hence the pump size.

I bet one circ with three ZV's would be okay with the circ on the supply after the expansion tank. Three circs on the supply isn't possible, without re-piping, if I read you correctly.

Heatmeister_2

The original owner of the home was the owner of a very large hotel.......and was an electrical engineer by education from what he neighbors have told me. He was always trying to builda better mouse trap. I am guessing that he may have taken the B&G's from his maintenance department and thought they would be neat in his home. That said, much of the circulating pipe is 1 1/4". Would that call for HV pumps?

B&G still make these pumps and can be had for around $200. I am not advocating keeping them I just want some feedback from the pro like yourself about how they would handle this refit. 1) Keep the pumps or 2)replace them with same 3)or replace with TACO or Grundfos?

Also, can someone explain why it is recommneded that the pumps should be on the outlet of the boiler vs. the return side?

Heatmeister_2

Hope your visit went well in MN

Tony, since we last spoke I have had 2 contractors stop by. One last weekend, he seemed overwhelmed with the system and I have since not heard back from him. The other came by yesterday. He was old school. He had LOTS of commercial boiler experience but has never worked with Condensing systems. He said nothing is really wrong with the way the system as it sits. He praised the B&G's and told me all about how they work even down to the rubber that was used in gaskets. However, he seemed to want to slap new unit in and be done with it since he said it has worked for 50+ years as it sits.

However, to your question. If you look closely at the system you may be able to see that I have one outlet pipe leaving the boiler, then a line branches off it which is a dedicated line to a Carrier Coiler heater that blows warm air in the basement out a couple of vents.That line serves as one zone in the basement and the Thermostat is in the basement.

The other two zones are serviced by that line you see going straight up. It feeds Copper Fin BB and recessed radiators on all 3 levels the the old style TACO Venturin Monoflo T's.

My zone layout is goofy also: I have 2 thermostats on the main floor which call on registers& CF BB in the basement, main floor and upstairs loft area.

I am running out of time.......going down to the 40's tonight. I fear I may not be able to get what I want and will have to settle for a simple boiler swap with no improvments.

Larry (from OSHA)

It

> The original owner of the home was the owner of a

> very large hotel.......and was an electrical

> engineer by education from what he neighbors have

> told me. He was always trying to builda better

> mouse trap. I am guessing that he may have taken

> the B&G's from his maintenance department and

> thought they would be neat in his home. That

> said, much of the circulating pipe is 1 1/4".

> Would that call for HV pumps?

>

> B&G still make

> these pumps and can be had for around $200. I am

> not advocating keeping them I just want some

> feedback from the pro like yourself about how

> they would handle this refit. 1) Keep the pumps

> or 2)replace them with same 3)or replace with

> TACO or Grundfos?

>

> Also, can someone explain

> why it is recommneded that the pumps should be on

> the outlet of the boiler vs. the return side?

RoosterBoy

Hmmm.. I have to think that you arent happy with the way

the system "works"... what you describe sounds more like reaction designe vs a plan. what i mean by that is it was designed After the fact sorta speak...many times the system of spliting one side of the house is done due to minor technicalities like existing Doors for example.

the fact that your having a mono flo system isnt some major impediment to using any other arrangement of piping and pumping or zoning..however to use what you have existing even with a new boiler and new circs wont necessasariliy provide you with any greater comfort...it wouldnt be exactly cool to fork out lots of bucks and to end up with the same thing ...with the newer materials these days we can run piping on many levels to controls and devises that are alot like monoflow ts with a danfoss remote bulb t stat and they preform exceptionally well.the routes to an from the boiler room can often be much more easily achieved than the previous layout, and that i may say might mean fewer pumps or even more zone control with less iron in the mechanical room. here is something to consider,if you got rid of the blower in the basement,lets say and spun in some radiant panels,just to keep the edge off in the area,put the first floor on its own loop with takeoffs for individual controlled cf convectors and shot two more zones up to the next two floors,making the heating system one zoned by floor ,i think you would be suprised as to how much simpler the system would be than the one you now have,and i have to think it would preform a bit closer to what you would find comfortable.

the next thing if you dont mind me saying this is there is likely a professional who can hammer in a boiler and get the system running the way you now have it arranged however,with a picture of you actually getting something that has fewer "designe features" (as microsoft calls them)that will bring your home under a plan that more easily conforms to what you want it to do and when and where... that way everything will continue to improve little by little,everytime you have something up graded it will likely return in greater comfort and lower utility bills. As you are not getting any younger reading this you might consider catching someone under find a professional at the top of the page who will better be able to give you much more detailed information by visiting your home... as to what pump and boiler well,if you dont like thier reccomendations you can always find ten diffrent plumbers with 100 diffrent ways to go about things *~/:) as you can see just talking to a few of us

Tony_23

Why not

Put in an Ultra with a manifold built with room to grow ?

Connect what you have, get out of trouble for now, while still upgrading the heating plant ? Re-do the distribution in the Spring ?

Heatmeister_2

I agree with everything you have said.......

I was very excited to get someone in to do the whole job severeal months ago. I really wanted to rip everything out right, even the monoflo, start from scratch and run Alumapex and homerun panel rads and add some staple up. However, after several months of searching for a pro in my area who is "comfortable" discussing what you have just written, I have given up. I now likely will take the path of least resistence and slap in a cast iron boiler and leave the system close to what it is.

Nearest pro to me is several hundred miles away in Wisconsin.

Heatmeister_2

Tony

Do you think the Ultra will perform better over the Prestige?

Joe Mattiello

Made in the USA

Johnny’s right about Taco having a very diverse product offering for a very dynamic industry. Taco’s quality products are made right here in the USA supplying jobs for American people just like you and me. Sourcing some work out is important to Taco staying competitive, helping drive the business forward. Repercussions are more jobs for American people, and nice trips to Europe, visiting the manufacturer who is providing jobs for the Piasons. Taco 0012 is an excellent canidate for replacing the existing B&G HV series currently installed. For your reference I have attached the submittal data information. To view all Taco products visit www.taco-hvac.com





Taco, Inc.
Joe Mattiello
Technical Service Technician
joemat@taco-hvac.com
401-942-8000 X 484
www.taco-hvac.com

Tony_23

well...

What is a "Prestige" ?

Is it condensing and modulating ?
If not, the simple answer is no.

Heatmeister_2

Triangle Tube Prestige

But b/c they only offer a 110BTU it looks like that won't work.