Reality Check

Wayco Wayne_2

is the way to go. You will not regret spending the money because it will come right back to you. You should also tighten the enveople of your house. Hard time are a coming for energy costs. WW

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Dan_15

Am I crazy for spending $$$ on reset boiler controls, or should I try insulating first and wait and see how that works before getting the boiler controls? Both would be ideal, but I am rethinking avoiding the boiler controls if the incremental efficiency will be small after insulating. I really like playing with electronic equipment, but maybe now is not the time yet. Thanks.

Unknown

You can add boiler reset for what, $200, $300?

Why wait?

Dan_15

Im talking about the Buderus R2107 plus indoor reset room senser. The equipment alone is about $1,000 plus labor.

Unknown

You can add a Tekmar outdoor reset boiler control for a *lot* less money than that, as an entry-level option. That control has a lot more features, and there are other controls with those features that are less money as well. Now if you're looking to add indoor reset as well, the price goes up, but simple outdoor reset is cheap and easy to retro in most cases.

Dan_15

Hmmmm, what does the Tekmar controller do that the Buderus cannot do? From what I have read and understand, the R2107 does everything I need including indoor reset, and is matched exactly with my boiler.

Unknown

There are lots of Tekmars with lots of different feature sets. All I'm saying is if money is a problem here, there are many levels of features you can get, from cheap and effective to all the bells and whistles.

Indoor feedback, for example, can be great, but not every project needs it (and, generally, it's quite an upcharge to add it). We use it a lot, but a lot of times outdoor reset with good thermostats is pretty much just as good.. and much cheaper. And, if you did indoor feedback with Tekmar, you could make every zone indoor feedback perhaps, instead of just one. And balancing the firing control across the whole system's demands.

Stuff like that. Tekmar, Caleffi and others offer controls for just about any feature set you're looking for.

Generally speaking I would look at a simple outdoor reset boiler control first. Then take a hard look at the rest of the features and see what is needed and what is wanted, and match that to your budget. But don't give up on the whole thing just because of price tag.. you can hit the major feature, outdoor reset, very cheaply.

Joe_55

IT will not leave you with any change out of $300.00 for starters the Tekmar will

Dan_15

seriously, is there any reason to use Buderus R2107 with room sensor over Tekmar with indoor/outdoor sensors? Buderus has pump logic which I like--does Tekmar have condensation protection? Will I have any problems integrating the Tekmar controls with Buderus boiler? Seems like the boiler should not know the difference right?

Ted_9

Professionalism

What about getting paid to install and program. Plus the cost of the parts(controls and wiring). I am the one that quoted Dan on this. The R2107 is the best control for this application. And no it will not be tons cheaper to do a Tekmar(which is great product).

Dan, the Tekmar stuff is great, but more work is needed to install it in this case. If you want to save a few hundred, find someone to do it for less.



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Ted_9

Comment

The Tekmar controler that is closely matched is not cheaper than the Buderus control. You may not be getting the full view of the pricing. And thats fine, its not about the few dollars between the two.

Dan, you will not regret getting the R2107 installed. I have customers that can tell you so.

Edit: You are comparing list and trade prices. So the Tekmar looks alot cheaper.

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Dan_15

Thats fair enough, Im not so much interested in the price of the labor because I appreciate that I get what I pay for with a professional; but as I looked deeper into these products I was surprised to learn that Tekmar seemed a lot less expensive than the Buderus equipment, although Tekmar seemed to do pretty much the same thing. I know a lot of folks will say that the R2107 controls are closely matched for the boiler, but I guess I am just questioning if Tekmar will do the same thing for so much less $$$ for the equipment.

My research turned up the R2107 for about $950 plus the indoor room sensor for about $150; whereas Tekmar 260 controller is about $275 plus a the indoor and outdoor sensors for less than $50 each. Maybe my reference points are off because I am not a professional but the Tekmar equipment seems a lot cheaper. I realize the Tekmar controls are a lot less integrated than Buderus, so maybe that accounts for the extra labor costs.

Unknown

Ah, I messed up, didn't realize that logimatic was list... obviously we use Tekmar more than logs.

Ted knows his controls and knows your system (which is more than we know from out here on the web), I'd follow his recommendations on this one.

Ted_9

Link?

NRT Rob, what happend to you'll link at the bottom. I'll take my answer on email if you'd like.

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hydronicsmike

Rob...I love you man!!

We're hiring...did you know

I very much appreciate your comments. Obviously, you been around the block for a while and have had success stories with the tekmar products. I am very glad to hear that.

I will not say which is better or which is worse (I am sure ya'll know who I would tell you to use )...I can say that I have been familiar with the Buderus products for more than 15 years now and from the products to the people behind it, I have never been dissapointed. Besides others, if you looked up 'Quality' in the dictionary, the Buderus name should be listed besides it.

To answer Dans question from my point of view: Do it both. Fuel is going up again right away here and it may even go higher right after that. If right now, a reset control can save you between 20-25% on fuel costs (depending on way to many factors to guarantee that), it is a very short period of time before it pays for itself. Even if you pay over 1000$ right now, would it be more than 3 years before it paid for itself? Dont forget, all the money you're saving is tax free too on top of that!! And this is at current fuel prices.

Also insulate your piping. Why waste energy if you can insulate the pipe? Sorry all....but if there is anything I support with DIY, thenit is insulating the pipe. Nobody gets hurt and everyone is ok and you save money. Buy any of these fine folks above here, especially Ted, a beer when you see them.

Regards,

Mike

Dan_15

Mike, thanks for your comments. At this point I agree that it makes sense to do both. I replaced my potbelly boiler last year with a Buderus G215 and I saved 400 gallons of fuel last year, representing about 23% of my annual bill. I am hoping that the outdoor/indoor reset controller plus blown-in cellulose insulation will help me squeeze out another 15% for a total savings of approx 40% in 2005-2006. At these market rates I expect my ROI will be 5 years on the entire boiler replacement and insulation project. One thing you said sort of tricked my mind--how to you figure that these changes are tax free? Care to elaborate?

leo g_13

the money that you

DON'T spend on fuel, comes from what's left of your taxable income,ergo, tax free. If you had to work overtime to make the same amount that your new boiler saved you just last year alone, I know that where I live, I'd have to make at least 30% more then the savings amount, to take into account the taxes on the gross wage.

Leo G

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Dan_15

I thought for a minute there was an EnergyStar tax credit in Massachusetts, but then I pinched myself and I was just dreaming. Call me dumb, I still dont get it. The money I would have spent on fuel and the money I did spend on the boiler and insulation upgrades are all from my after-tax disposable income. Where is the tax savings?

hydronicsmike

Hello Dan

Lets assume your fuel bill was about $1200/year. If you save $300 now and only pay $900/year,then the $300 can be considered tax free. More spending power.

Its basically extra money in your pocket due to savings. As Leo said, if you wanted to earn an extra $300/month through work and have that $300 end up in your pocket, you would have to make about $500 more, as the lovely government makes you pay income tax.

I hope this makes sense.

Knock on wood and hope they wont ever figure out a way to charge you a 'smart mans tax' when you upgrade your equipment to something more efficient in the future.

I should appologize for making you think the good government pays you for it Would be too good to be true. And too good to be true, usually is

Anyways, you may have to insulate after you save that money from the extra controller. We were just talking savings due to efficiency increase. Put on the controller, as it also performs one very important feature - boiler protection. You can add insulation all you want, but if your boiler only lasts 3-5 years because it wasnt controlled properly, then no matter how much you saved annually on your fuel bill......the boiler costs you more and any savings prior are out the window.

I hope this helps you make a good decision.

Regards,

Mike


PS: IMO, you're very well off with Ted. He's a good man. I have chatted with him once or twice and he knows what he is talking about.