weil-mclain seal issue

Mitch_4

I am not knocking Weil in General..just the local rep in my area is (or hopefully was) an idiot. Relationship can be everything..heck I get random calls from the rep for the product I use now just to see if everything is ok and are there any issues I need help resolving. Hell he even called me on my birthday..

That is a relationship.. AND I have not had to let things slide cuz he is like a bud...if he says he is doing it..he does...and it is DAMN fast. I need that.

Mitch

Jim Farrell

Weil-McLain Elastomer Seal

Recently reading "THE WALL" there has been much discussion about Weil-McLain using Elastomer Seals between each cast iron section...Since the early 70's Weil-McLain started useing elastomer seals -vs- Cast Iron Push Nipple...About 1992 Weil-McLain published 4 page document to tell the Elastomer Seal Story -vs- Cast Iron Push Nipple...Enclosed in this post you will find the (4)-page document from
Weil-McLain...Hopefully all the wallies will read this and make an informed desicion...

Jim Farrell

Weil-McLain Elastomer Seal

Recently reading "THE WALL" there has been much discussion about Weil-McLain using Elastomer Seals between each cast iron section...Since the early 70's Weil-McLain started useing elastomer seals -vs- Cast Iron Push Nipple...About 1992 Weil-McLain published 4 page document to tell the Elastomer Seal Story -vs- Cast Iron Push Nipple...Enclosed in this post you will find the (4)-page document from
Weil-McLain...Hopefully all the wall readers will read this and make an informed desicion about which hydronic equipment to install...

Josh_10

If anyone has re-built a push nipple boiler you will know what Jim is talking about. I just have to say that after doing nothing but rebuilding cast iron sectional boilers for several years I am an O-Ring man to the bone. Every O-Ring failure I have ever seen was caused by either a poor rope seal around the combustion chamber or pitting caused by poor water quality in steamers.

Just my opinion but if I have to rebuild a boiler I don't want to find push nipples.

Thanks Jim.

Big Ed

Report

I wish I could read zip...Can some one please open and repost report ?

Jim do you work for Weil Mc Lain Co. ?

Regards
Basement Grunt

Floyd

Unzipped..

Big Ed

Push Nipples

Josh you seen alot of push nipples leaks ? How many push nipple leaks per O-ring do you see ? Residentual or commerical ?

Big Ed

Why Thank You Sir

Iam years over due for a new machine .I guess I'am a fruggle(cheap) Dutchman thanks again Floyed

Will_5

Revision

I think if the revised there study they would find a slightly different graph, one that would have a few other manufacturer's named, all using push nipples.

Mitch_6

O rings

I have had the occasion of having to install EGH boilers in cellars with no easy access and have found the o ring system of Weil McLain great.

we order the boiler block & jacket, take the block apart into individual sections, re assemble it in the cellar, pressure test it, trim it and fire it up.

Try that with a push nipple block.

Mitch S.

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Josh_10

I have seen just as many push nipple leaks as O-Ring leaks. This is just the opinion from someone who has built or rebuilt alot of cast iron sectionals.

My feeling is that if cast iron sectional boilers are assembled properly and water quality is good there should never be a leak whether it is an O-Ring or push nipple. But if I get a call to repair a cast iron sectional I pray that it isn't a push nipple boiler.

Again just my experience talking. Strictly just my personal opinion.

[Deleted User]

A googling of Jim Farrell and hydronics found...

http://www.supplyht.com/CDA/Archives/a77a10b88c278010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

ME

Will_5

Plus & Minus

Both have their positives and negatives, I've just found more positives with push nipples but,everything has it's place!

Jim Farrell

Not trying to hide...

Just trying to educate on the difference between the two...

Yes I am a Weil-McLain Sales Rep and very proud of it...
We manufacture the finest product on the market...We reduced our failure rate when we switched over to using elastomer seal vs push nipples...

Just some food for thought....

James P. Farrell

Joe Brix

How about

when the parts are made in that plant in China? I will never support W-M products now that you support low wage, communist backed labor and materials.

harvey

Life expectancy

We're in the Chicago area and the ONLY boilers that we replace that are 16 - 19 years old are Weil-McLain. Just my opinion. We would NOT install them for a good customer.

Joe Grosso

O-Rings

Well, first of all, I sell steel boilers, so I don't really care about the debate.However, in my 25 years of oil burner service, I have found more bad push nipples than O-Rings.Just making an observation.

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Unknown

weil mclain \"rubber\" seals

I'm in west suburbs of Chicago, only time that I replaced "young" weil mclain boilers installed wrong by "handyman" companies are due to the sections leaky and the seals were fine... I've seen more of older boilers failure due to age ( 35 plus years) due to pumping toward compression tank and adding makeup water after purging the system of air year after years...
My late father picked Weil Mclain boliers when U.S. Raditaors/Crane (push nipples) boiler went under...

justme_2

Elastomer Seal vs Push Nipples

I have represented manufacturers of both Rubber ring and Steel nipple boilers.

In my years I sold more elastomer seals than I did push nipples. If someone needed an Elastomer seal, I never questioned it. But if someone needed the push nipple I would inquire more. Most times the push nipple would fail during install.

Replacing a push nipple was not part of regular maitenance as opposed to rubber ring.

My personal experience has shown to me that good quality push nipples are far more reliable than rubber rings.

I can only speak for my own personal experience.

eric_2

Jim

you wouldn't happen to be a rep in great north Jersey would ya'?
Good to see Weil on the Wall.

Mitch_4

you know

"We manufacture the finest product on the market..."

I meet a lot of reps//and for every aurgument they make, I can find the exact opposite from a competitor, and both are 100% commited to "we make the best.."they all can't be for every " we are better because.." line you have there is someone who can "categorically" explain why that is not a benefit, and I am certain you can do the same in reverse..

That is called sales

you make a great boiler, but your support was crap when I used it...I use another now. their product (push nipples by the way) are as good as yours but their support is ACES!! I get same day if not right away and answer, from a real person and rarely leave a message.

People make the difference.

my 0.02$

Boilerpro_3

Long term success, short term success and Knuckleheads

A standing back perspective, IMHO
As many have already said here, O rings are alot easier to put together without having leaks initially (is this the reduced failure rate cited in the WM literature?), but does that necessarily make them the better long term solution? I doubt anyone will diagree that it is alot easier to screw up a nipple installation (whether steel or iron nipples) and get leaks initially, but what about long term leaks? With the WM's I have seen here in northern IL, the factory assembled CG series boiler seem to hold up very well, however, the usually site assembled EG, EGH rarely last more that that 16 to 19 years mentioned previousily....probably an indication of knucklehead installation...ie improperly installed rope seals etc. I have not seen this high of a failure rate on the larger weil MGB/LGb boilers, but the guys installing these usually have had more boiler experience than the typically untrained forced air contractors that are installing the EG,EGH series. (I'd say about 95% of the boilers installed in my area are installed by forced air contractors or plumbing contractors with no training).
To me it appears that one of the chief reasons for seal failures on Weils is that a large number of contractors that install the boilers are not properly trained and/or are the low ball bidder....those types that never will spend the time or money on proper training or reading the installation manual. For them they can slap in an O ring seal boiler and have no leaks, despite shoddy work, where if they tried that with a nipple assembly boiler, they would more hours invested and have leaks right off the bat and, of course, blame the boiler. However, a few years down the road, the O-ring, site assembled boiler is leaking due to the shoddy work and probably lack of proper maintenace to boot. Until we can get rid of the shoddy installer, the O rings will keep failing giving all O ring manufactureers a bad name and the reputable installers that use thier products.

As for myself, I will still stick to Burnhams, Slantfins, and Dunkirks for the decreasing numbers of cast iron sectionals I am installing. 150 years of proven longevity with push nipples is hard to argue with.

Boilerpro

eric_2

Mitch, you hit the nail on the head!

Support from the manufactor and rep is the single most important thing next to having a good product. Being a supplier, I have a choice in what offering I choose to sell. Who do you think gets stock in my warehouse? The rep I have to wait to hear back from in a day or two or the one who gets back to me right away and supports their product fully?
I happen to sell Weil-Mclain and have an excellent rep so it's a winning combination for me. All manufactors have issues from time to time but what really matters is how they handle it. Do they stand tall and say yes, we have a problem and here's what we're going to do about it or is it the gee, that's the first time I heard that quote after I have received and made 4 calls on the same thing.
Quick example......I had a rep who wanted to show me a condensing oil boiler. I was very interested in learning more about it. We set up an appointment with the rep and the manufactor, day comes and no show on the manufactor.
I hear from the rep, I haven't heard back from him for the past 2 days..............
Enough said, meeting is over. I don't care how good your product is, without support and answers when I need them, the product is useless.
Anyway, I've sold hundreds of Weil-Mclain boilers and have a very small percentage of O-ring failures, whether contractor fault or not. But in every case, received excellent support from Weil in resolving any issue.
Just my .02.....

Steamhead (in transit)

Captain,

tell us more- whose steel boiers do you use? And do you use them for steam as well as hot water? Inquiring wetheads want to know.....

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Jim Farrell

Steel...

We currently do not offer a steel boiler...Cast Iron or Cast Aluminum which is used in our ULTRA Gas Product Offering...We do not manufacture this Cast Aluminum Block due to the detail of mixing the 2 metals into a mold...We pour Cast Iron in Michigan Cuty, IN for our entire product line except the Ultra Gas Boiler..

Has anyone ever visited our Foundry or any foundry for that matter...???If you ever get the chance and you thiink your job is hard go and see how the guys work...It opened my eyes alot the 1st time I ever saw them work...And that visit was to Boyertown, PA...

B. Tice

Boilers

I use EFM and Thermo-Dynamics boilers.
No, sorry, no steam.:) Have to switch to iron fot that.

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Boilerpro_3

Jim

Many Wallies have been to the foundry in Indiana. There was about 50 or so when I was there a couple years ago when Wetstock was in Chicago. Is the foundry staying put and are all the boiler castings for all your products lines going to still be made there or are they moving some or all production to China?

Boilerpro

Jim Farrell

Weil-McLain purchased a company in china to open up markets to sell our current boiler line in china(Commercial) and to have access to the Technology of what they use over there to heat homes...Weil McLain makes our cast iron sections in our foundry in Michigan City...Nothing is made in China...
The Ultra Heat Exchanger is made in Holland Netherlands because it a special casting of aluminum and cast...

We make cast iron quicker, better then our competitors...
I stand behind our quality of cast iron and it's second to none...

Boilerpro where are you located...???

Rich_29

Jim: Is your castiron "Grey or Eutectic as European castings are" ? What is it's low temperature limit?

I believe Burnham's latest MPO can handle 100*

Best reguards Brendan

Big Ed

Cast Iron Limits

There are different types of cast irons and handle different limits ?? Could you tell me more? All I know is that its heavy and some times it will come my way with sand cast holes.....What is the difference between gray and black ?

Regards
Basement Grunt

cruizer

Weil-McLain

The boiler company Weil purchased in China is specifically making chinese boilers for the chinese markets. The Chinese prefer to have the products they buy made in their own country. Weil saw an opportunity to exponentionally gorw their Chinese market and jumped at the chance.
THE CAST IRON SECTIONS MADE IN CHINA WILL NOT BE SHIPPED AND USED IN THE UNITED STATES!!

Weil-McLain will continue to cast their own iron for the American Market for the American Made cast iron boilers.

Rich_29

Ed: Yes I believe there are different kinds of cast iron's!

And i've also heard when they smelt the junk autos in Europe they leave on the tires, makes for more flexability

Regards Brendan

Boilerpro_5

West of Chicago...NM



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Ted_13

Iron classifications

here is a little info on iron types, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron
http://www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/properties_of_metals_strength.htm,

also ductile iron info here:
http://www.americanvalve.com/flanged pages/metallurgy.html

I highly doubt that anyone would want impurities in the iron mix such as tires. For gray Iron the mix consists of select scrap metal, iron ore, coke and limestone. Magnesium is added to this to make ductile iron which transform the graphite giving it more tensil strength. I believe that ASME requires the type of iron to be cast into the casting, pipe or fitting.

Ted

Bill Jirik,

great seals poor customer support and thin castings

We do Weil McClain LGB steamers (lgb12 and bigger)
love the rubber seals, they do go together quickly, unfortanately we have had to many of these boilers start leaking after 5-8 years with holes in the sections at or above the water line something we dont see with the equivalent Peerlees or H B Smith boilers, also tech support at Weil needs improvement,who wants to wait a day or two for an answer when assembling a boiler, instead of voice mail perhaps they will outsource tech support to China at least then I won't have to wait two days for an answer

Binnacle

Own a 50-year-old Weil McLain E-9 which has push-nipples and the boiler appears to be in excellent condition. Prior owners knew nothing about water treatment and so it obviously saw a good deal of red-rust (hematite) corrosion. Fortunately the city water pH here is bit above 7.0 rather than below. For a year I've had the old pot on a diet of 300 ppm hydroxide alkalinity (TSP + NaOH added), water is clear and the only oxidation now is the protective magnetite layer that has mostly replace the rust. The few particles in blow-down are primarily from steam-pipe corrosion working it's way down.

I have read that gasket boilers cannot tolerate hydroxide alkalinity. So in my book that's junk and I would never replace this unit with anything but a push-nipple design. WM would be the top contender due to the impressive longevity and apparent good design of the E-9, but now I read here they cheapened their design--they are off the list.

Abracadabra

Mitch said:

O rings

I have had the occasion of having to install EGH boilers in cellars with no easy access and have found the o ring system of Weil McLain great.

we order the boiler block & jacket, take the block apart into individual sections, re assemble it in the cellar, pressure test it, trim it and fire it up.

Try that with a push nipple block.

Mitch S.

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Mitch, do you reuse the compressed o-rings that came with the assembled block? or do you use a new set of o-rings? My distributor seemed to indicate that you could not reuse the o-rings which had already been installed. I had to take apart an LGB-14/15? few years ago that I had already set in place (don't ask.. owner decided he wanted boiler somewhere else after we put the sections together) and I found that the compressed o-rings didn't have the same thickness as the uncompressed ones. Also, sometimes the used o-rings would have their edges "shaved" as the sections were pulled together by the bolts.