Whole House Radiant floor heating...tubes ONLY in the basement

George Peteya_2

... it won't. Heat doesn't rise, heated air does. Radiant will heat objects and people in the basement, without "overheating" the air. You need a separate heat source on the main level.

DG

Whole House Radiant floor heating...tubes ONLY in the basement

I am building a home and my builder is suggesting that I heat the entire home (2000 sqft ranch with an unfinished walkout basement...it is also an ICF home, which means poured concrete walls) with hydronic radiant floor heating ONLY in the poured concrete floor of the basement. Can this REALLY keep the house heated? My thought is that it wont but I am looking for information before I make my decision. Any help would be appreciated...thanks.

Unknown

It'll keep heat in the envelope, but it wouldn't be at all controllable upstairs and you'd need a 80-90 degree basement. Bad idea.

hr

No, but

it is easy enough to add radiant to the upper level also. Typically the load is higher on the levels above the ground with more windows and doors.

There are systems and methods for installing radiant under, above, or even intergral to the subfloor.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JimL

I'd be concerned........

As mentioned in the previous posts, the builder missed out on the radiant 101 early morning session. What else did he miss??? Is there a radiant system designed for this or was he going to wing it?
My $.02....Find a radiant expert, spend a few bucks on the design, and have it done right. You should have the plan in hand before work begins. Check out the "How not to install radiant post"......if you're still not convinced.
JL

Garret

That's such a nutty idea, I wonder if there's just some confusion here... Maybe the builder means he'd heat the house with nothing installed outside the basement using a combination of radiant in the slab and in the main floor joist bays.

Jerry_15

As the other guys have expressed, the whole idea of a radiant floor is to NOT have the heat going to the floor above. That's why they're so great on lofted ceilings and big hard to heat spaces. Put it where you want it; because that's the only place it will go. Good luck

[Deleted User]

I hate when...

the builder knows more about my job than I do. I've only been doing it for 1/3 of a century.

He's of the mistaken impression that "heat rises". He'll probably try and talk you out of insulation below the heat in the upper floors too because of the same design principle, that being that in his years of experience "heat rises". Radiant thermal energy, which is what were dealing with here, travels omni-directionally, through the path of least resistance. Heat flows to cold in an effort to balance the thermal energy values out. Ma Nature dispises any imbalances in heat, pressure humidity and temperature. In order to keep the main floor reasonably comfy, you'd have to have keep the basement uncomfortably warm to even crack the comfort horizon on the upper floors.

Listen to your gut, not your framer.

ME

If I were you, before you sign on the dotted line, go out and look at some of his completed projects, talk to the owners to see if there were any "issues" during construction, and if so, how were they handled, and hire a hydronic heating professional with background and EXPERIENCE in hydronic radinat heating to make the calls on your comfort system.

I don't tell my GC's how to build their houses, and they don't tell me how to do my systems. It makes for an EXCELLENT working relationship...

ME

jim lockard

DG

Look at the pipe on the upper left. Find a Pro in your area and ask for a consultation.Should you not find a Pro in your area you can always send your drawing out for review and have a full blown radient floor plan worked up. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Kevin_in_Denver_2

basements don't need radiant

I know it's heresy and I put radiant in my own basement, but it's never ever come on with the stat set to 66F. More heresy, but part of that reason is I don't have insulation between floors. I would argue that you don't need it in a superinsulated house. The reason is that every room loses heat so slowly and evenly, it's impossible to cause significant unwanted variation by omitting the between floor insulation.

Look closely at a typical heatloss calculation... a tight house might be 10-15 Btu/ft2/hr, but the basement is only 3-5 if the perimeter is detailed correctly. An ICF home would be detailed correctly by default.

Why install all that pipe and the zone valve, when $100 worth of electric baseboard will do the trick?

Unknown

Go a step further, why use radiant floor in a superinsulated home to begin with?

If you do, though, why increase your 1st floor load by 30-50% to cover the basement when pipe in slab is so cheap and you can keep your water temps under 100 easy for the whole home?

Heck. Then you've got one great system that will run on just about anything ever invented to heat water.

Also, what if you actually care about controlling the basement temp?

DG

The Decision

Thank you for all who gave their thoughts. I have decided to NOT go with radiant floor heat. Regrettably I wanted to, but my biggest pay back is in my investment in the superinsulated ICFs. This investment already stretched my finances so paying an extra 6500 just wasnt in the budget. Also, the R-value of the wall is 32 or greater. With that in mind, I think the 13 sear heat pump and propane back-up (which was the original plan) will suffice. I was really hoping to be off of gas(natural or propane), but hopefully my usage will be kept to a minimum since its only going to be used for the furnace. Thanks again.

JimL

Please consider prepping the slab with the tube before you pour it. You do not have to hook it up anytime soon but at least it's ready when the day comes to finish the basement. I realize you don't miss what you don't have but trust me, at some point you will regret not doing it.

Brent_2

propane

Where are you located? You don't need to use propane as back up heat. You can use electric. Do know what your heating & cooling loads are? I would think with your size house it would not be that great. It might not pay to install a furnace and deal with the propane.

Brent

[Deleted User]

If it were my house...

ata MINIMUM, I'd put it in the bathroom floors, and the one space where I spend the majority of my time.

If you've never experienced radiant comfort, you'll never know what your missing. Once you've experienced it, you'll want nothing else.

ME

johnnyd

marketing radiant heat

I'm a frequent lurker here, but really just a very interested HO that very successfully DIY'd the entire radiant system in my house. And I think you're onto something on the "once you've lived with radiant" line....maybe a good way to market radiant floor heat would be to do the heating in a much frequented place..hotel, convention center, bed & breakfast, etc...and give the owner a discount in exchange for permanent signage directing occupants to your radiant heat business or association. Just a thought...

DG

Ok ...how about this option....

Since radiant floor heat will most likely be out of my budget, I will likely be going with a SEER Heat pump. I was recently encouraged to jump from a 13 SEER to a 16 SEER. Is the cost difference worth the efficiency? Also, as a back up to the heat pump, I am being told that in temps UNDER 30F I will need something else to compensate for the heat pump. I was originally thinking a propane furnace, but I am having second thoughts to fossil fuels as they are skyrocketing. So the thought came in about an Electric Furnace. So would a 16 SEER Heat pump and an electric furnace inside a super-insulated ICF building sound like a good combination?

[Deleted User]

Only one way to know for sure...

Hire a professional that has the ability to perform a heat loss calculation on the home, then have them take that information and expose it to the degree day Bin Data for your locale, which shows the actual hours and temperature of exposure to the home.

You will then be able to determine the "cost effectiveness" of one SEER versus the other, so you can justify the additional expense. You can also see what the net cost effect of using straight resistance electric versus LP are.

It's probably going to cost you a few bucks to figure it out, but it's really the only right way of doing it. Otherwise, the pay back is based on annecdotal information that may not be applicable to your well built castle...

ME

Kevin_in_Denver_2

HVAC-talk may turn up some opinions about 13 vs. 16, but they never talk about pricing.

blackoakbob_2

I absolutly agree...

with ME, take the time to run the numbers. If your utility can't give you an idea of annual operating costs there are some charts available to use if you know what your cost/kw, S.E.E.R,etc. Try www.electromn.com. The best advice is to buy the most efficieny you can afford. Also, you can heat water with heat pumps, too. Best Regards,

Couderay

I built a ranch in upper Wisconsin with ICF basement walls. Put radiant in the floor and for the first winter heated the house with no heat source up stairs. Ran radiant at 72* degrees and a box fan at the top of the stairs. It worked ok house stayed around 68 degrees. But I finally installed baseboard last fall and ran it this winter. Can it be done I did but definatly not in your best intrest and yes radiant is the only way to go.