geothermal

Constantin

... when I came to ISH at Boston, I met a installer from NH (I think) who was very responsive, interested, etc. to get the ball rolling. Trouble is, by the time I got to ISH Boston, our equipment was already on order and in the process of being installed. So, after some reflection, I declined the standing offer to contact them and will install a regular air-based system instead.

This bugged me a lot since going with a radiant cooling system was something I was considering seriously. A geothermal system would have been perfect, allowing a very compact system and maximizing the interior living space... the HRVs would have been the core of the AC system since the latent heat makes up but 10% of the total heat load...

Anyway, I wish ECR best of luck with the DX. From what I can tell, it's a neat system that ought to make many home owners very happy if it is installed properly. The one thing I may yet adopt in the future is a Aquifier or similar desuperator to preheat the DHW in the summer time (thanks, Jeff Lawrence!).

Al Letellier

geothermal

Has anybody out there done or know of anyone well versed in geothermal heating. Spoke with a gentleman today who is interested in cost comparisons using geothermal vs. standard oil or gas fired boilers.....more interested in operating costs.
Any help greatly appreciated

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bigugh_4

There is a geothermal source here in utah

Southern Utah has a geothermal source, It is used by the power Co to produce electricity. It required a Oil well rig to bring it on to line. It is high pressure steam, with a underground fresh water source. The only other geothermal sources that are around here, are heat pump related ground obtained heat & or heat sink type. For us average folks that is not to bad, Supposedly pretty inexpensive heat pump operation is obtained. The Ground needs to be wetted some for this type of operation. (around here in the desert) Cost of equip. & install, is relatively expensive, operation fairly eff. As all HVAC requiers some carefull engineering, for each application good luck.

Craig Bergman

We do a LOT..

of Geothermal work. We have been doing it for three years
and it makes up about 40% of the business now.

General upfront costs are about double forced air for new
construction, before rebates. A well built 2,000 sqft home
on the main level runs about 16,000.00(Give or take a little)Here in Iowa, that will get about 3,500.00 in rebates. We average about a six to eight year payback on the Geothermal system.

That same house will save between 600.00 and 1,000.00
a year on Heating, Colling and DHW costs.

In the custom home market we are also doing a lot of Geo/Radiant installs....High dollar work but oh so comfortable for the customer!!

Craig

P.S. For e-mail drop the last "t" in nett

Tom_35

Geothermal heat pumps

We have been installing ECR direct-exchange geothermal heat pumps for the last 3 years. The heat exchanger is actually the refrigerant piping in the ground as opposed to the polyethylene piping. Efficiency is really great. There is more to installing the direct exchange unit on the front end, but they seem to work in wide temperature ranges without a lot of problems.

We are doing a home now that has 6 on it and are tied to radiant floors, wall, and tub deck.

I'm in Arkansas and our electrical utilities here are "summer peaking", so we get a real break on the electric bill during the winter, which is when the natural gas/propane folks ratchet the prices up---result is the heat pumps delivers some really low bills.

We started doing the water source geothermal heat pumps back in the late 70's and still have original units in operation.

Tom A

Brent_2

compare

What type of systems are you trying to compare? With oil or gas boilers would you do a hot water coil in the ductwork? If so you could do a decent comparison. If you planning on using baseboard I think it would get tricky because you would be comparing apples to oranges. Also check your electric rates to see if you get a reduced rate in the winter for electric heating.

Brent

Ken D.

GEO

Most electric utilities have information and cost comparisons as well as individual equipment manufacturers.
We have done geothermal systems for over twenty years. We have done water source, earth coupled, glychol and otherwise. We have used ECI, FHP, Waterfurnace and others. Initial cost is high and ancillary systems can drive the costs even higher. Condition of water and soil can have corrosive effect on piping and equip. and low well capacities can be a detriment to economy. Many times the different enviromental conditions collide to drive maintenance and repairs through the roof. Thorough site evaluation and system engineering are of the utmost importance to maximize cost effectivness. Many municipalities are regulating these systems to protect the aquifers.

Constantin

I looked into them...

The payback on geothermal units depends in large part on the fuel used at the local electrical utility. I imagine that these units would do great in the Midwest where coal is king and there are lots of folk around who can still drill for wells.

In the urban areas of the Northeast, power is very expensive ($0.16+) and drilling is very expensive also. I considered a geothermal until the ECR rep decided not to reply to inquiries and another rep said I shouldn't be calling him unless I was willing to spend at least $25,000 on the drilling + Equipment alone due to my location. So, I decided to go the conventional route and ditch Geothermal.

In the end, a lot depends on the local energy conditions and the cost to get the coils into the ground. A plastic-pipe-based system is likely to be more expensive than the DX from ECR because of the additional and larger-bore drilling required, on the other hand the plastic is going to be less prone to weird interactions with the soil than the copper pipe used by ECR.

I'd start with a stright NPV calculation that accounts for changes in energy-source prices. Then take a look at the up-front costs and the operating costs to see what the life-cycle costs are of each heating/cooling option. If you'd like some help setting up a NPV calc, drop me a line and I'll program it for you in Excel.

Gary Hayden_2

Big Changes at ECR since Constantin Experience

New Chief Operating Officer
ECR is proud to announce the addition of Brian King as Chief Operating Officer as of April 4, 2005. Brian has extensive experience in National and International Sales and Marketing, including new product development and introduction, and full corporate growth responsibilities. He served as Heat Controller, Inc National Sales Manager; Burnham Corporation, General Manager, International Sales and Marketing; Burnham Radiant Heating Co, President; and Glow Core Corporation, President. Brian was a founding director of the Radiant Panel Association.



EarthLinked� In Extreme Cold
Despite a severe winter in Saskatchewan, Canada, with temperatures plunging as low as 40�F below zero, Jack Kuervers of Alt Power Systems was comfortable in his new 4,640 square foot Humboldt office. Since the summer of 2003, the space has been heated and cooled with ECR's SC-036 and SW-036 EarthLinked� systems, featuring hydronic water heating in a portion of the space.

When considering which heating system to install in his new office space, he knew he wanted to use geothermal. Always on the look-out for the most efficient system, Jack delved a little further in his research to determine exactly which product best fit his needs. �When I saw that the EarthLinked� DX system was 25% more efficient than water source geothermal systems when tested in Michigan , the choice was a no-brainer,� says Jack. Not only did Jack like the fact that EarthLinked� uses copper loops as heat conductors instead of plastic, but he knew that less earth loop meant less drilling, resulting in a lower cost installation.

The efficiency of The EarthLinked� system, coupled with airtight, reflective insulation and triple-glazed argon-filled windows has allowed Jack to enjoy significant savings on his electric bills, too. In his previous 800 sq. foot store, which was heated by natural gas, Jack paid about $200 in the coldest month of winter. In his new office, for almost six times the space, Jack paid only $170 in heating costs. �During our coldest winter month, my neighbors paid about $300-$350 in heating alone for a similar size space.� Of EarthLinked�, Jack insists, �It just makes more sense.�



Women Selecting EarthLinked� Systems
It's no secret. For as long as we can remember, women have represented a major part of consumer markets. Women are key participants in the purchasing decisions of most items, from groceries and appliances to technology and vehicles, but they haven't always been actively involved in the purchasing of heating and cooling systems for their homes. Increasingly, women are getting the attention of the construction industry as informed and influential decision makers.

Gemma Tiller of Air Brokers HVAC in Missouri agrees: �Unlike 30 to 50 years ago when a woman's participation in the construction of their home was limited to color selections and kitchen and bath design�women are extremely proactive in today's construction process.� And when it comes to deciding which heating and cooling system to use in their homes, women aren't leaving the decision to someone else, they're taking it on� and doing their homework.

Says Gemma, �In many instances, it's the woman who contacts me after doing the research. After seeing the obvious benefits of the EarthLinked� system and DX technology�savings, comfort, lifespan, and simplicity�she'll call to iron out issues like cost and questions about the installation process.�
Despite her current level of involvement, Gemma's role as a Sales Representative for ECR Technologies had quite a modest beginning. When forced to contribute 100% of her family's income, Gemma, a Master Mechanic with a strong background in the HVAC/R industry, called her local electric cooperative for suggestions on exactly where to take her career. Geothermal was the cooperative's suggestion, and because of her experience in refrigeration, Gemma chose ECR Technologies and the EarthLinked� DX system as her product line.

She's now involved not only as one of ECR's most aggressive and successful sales representatives, but she has also been a key player in the planning, development and execution of the High Tech Home (HTH) Seminars, which were created to educate consumers on how to use certain energy-efficient products to obtain maximum comfort, efficiency, and affordability in their homes. Gemma has made it her mission to spread the word: �Consumers are just clamoring to receive this information, so I've made it my primary focus to educate as many people as possible.�

What's next for Gemma? Currently, she's actively recruiting qualified dealers to represent her flourishing territory. �With the demand for DX systems increasing dramatically�in part because of the rise in fuel costs�we're recruiting well-qualified HVAC/R contractors to handle the surge. This is such a phenomenal opportunity. EarthLinked� Technology is indeed the wave of the future in heating and cooling technology.�



Trading Up�Revisited
An emerging profitable market segment was recently described in a Forbes magazine article, �Millionaires' Green Mansions.� The focus was on purchase decisions that are motivated not only by the desire to reduce the use of fuels that are escalating in cost and reducing our air quality, but also a growing concern to gain more control over one's energy consumption and future supply.

By reducing consumption through energy efficient technologies and generating some of the power necessary to operate one's home, consumers are getting closer to energy independence. Motivation for this movement comes in part from the California energy crisis, the Northeast blackout of 2003, and the disruption in supply that lasted several weeks following Florida hurricanes in 2004. The aesthetic benefit of eliminating outdoor clutter and noise that accompanies air source heat pumps is also an important feature to more affluent consumers.

This group includes customers that are changing to Green Power, photo voltaics, and wind generators as technology advances have created smaller, lighter, more efficient equipment. These customers represent a great target because they purchase multiple units, are less averse to the higher price of geo, resulting in more profitable sales for the EarthLinked� Dealer.



New Distributor for New England
ECR is also very proud to welcome Scott Teller of Earthwise Energy Technology, our newest Distributor serving all six New England States. Based in Rhode Island, Earthwise Energy's mission is to become the premier Alternative Energy Representative firm in New England.

Scott has an extensive background as an HVAC Manufacturer's Representative�since graduating from college in 1980, he's been involved on many levels in the industry, from engineer to sales representative, and from contractor to manager. Scott reports that through this variety of experience he discovered that:

�Geothermal products and technology are my passion, which has finally been realized through this opportunity with Earthwise Energy. Earthwise has set out to put ECR's EarthLinked� system on the map in New England.�
On a larger level, Scott hopes Earthwise Energy will be crucial in implementing and promoting utility incentive programs throughout the Northeast, which will help build on the worthy efforts of Scott 's predecessors, C.H.W, LLC of Connecticut and KW Management of New Hampshire. Says ECR Chief Operating Officer, Brian King, �I've known Scott Teller for many years, and I know he's a solid industry professional with an impressive knowledge of geothermal products and systems. I look forward to a long-lasting relationship between ECR and Earthwise Energy Technology.�

For more information, contact Scott Teller at Earthwise Energy Technology; 505 Narragansett Park Drive, Pawtucket, RI 02861, steller05@cox.net, or at (401) 230-8438.



Dealer Training Sessions
There are four Dealer Training Sessions currently scheduled for April and May:

April 27-28, Indiana: Sponsored by Sales Rep Mike Dilling of Hoosier Energy Associates, an experienced DX installer since 1989.

May 16-17, Wisconsin: Sponsored by Sales Rep Mona Archibald of 2DX2 Geothermal Systems, Inc., featuring the topic "Using EarthLinked� Direct Exchange Ground Source Heat Pumps with Hydronic Heating."

May 19, Rhode Island: Sponsored by Scott Teller of Earthwise Energy Technology, EarthLinked� Distributor for New England.

May 20, New Hampshire: Sponsored by Scott Teller of Earthwise Energy Technology, EarthLinked� Distributor for New England.
Click here for registration info or to learn more about these training sessions.


ECR Featured in Several Publications
ECR's EarthLinked� technology has recently been featured in some highly regarded industry publications, including Smart HomeOwner, ACHR News, Reeves Journal and the Journal of Light Construction.

Ranger

Mr.Heat Pump/Mr.Blower Door Test

Mr.Ed Janowiak,Bramante Energy/Eastern Heating & Cooling Council.609-660-9617.

Tom_35

Constantin,

When you were checking on the drilling for the ECR system, was it conventional vertical drilling or the angled drilling using a 2" bit? Our driller has a drilling rig that is mounted on a skid-steer that he can get into really tight spaces. He drills with the angles then backfills with a specific grouting mix. We have him furnish the entire copper heat exchanger, drilling, etc and he maintains the warranty on that portion of the installation. The drilling and the heat exchanger are definitely pricy, but the systems have worked extremely well.

I will try to post some pics soon of the job we are doing now showing the drilling rig. I believe it was designed in Montrose, CO. M.E. might have some knowledge about them. I asked him several months ago via an e-mail if he had done any of the direct-exchange systems and I believe that he said that he was waiting for a little more history on them before jumping in.

Tom A

Constantin

I don't remember all the details...

... I believe the $$$ installation quote was for a conventional geothermal system. The "thin" drill-hole requirements and the installation freedom were a big plus for the DX, so much so that I thought about siting the drill hole under the basement - rootproof.

Tom_35

drilling location

The first job we did was on a retrofit and the heat exchanger pit was a 4' x 4' pit---in the flower bed next to the house. Went incredibly well as we would have had to cut through a lot of concrete in the driveway and patio to get to the ground area if we had gone with conventional geothermal.

We're hoping that we are going to get a job at a commercial printing company this winter. The area is in the basement and there is very little sensible load. We would be able to drill just outside the side wall in an access drive, then bring the refrigerant piping straight through the wall to the fan coi. Would really make sense as an air-cooled condenser would have to be mounted 3 stories up on the roof, refrigerant piping difficulties, electrical, crane, etc. Plus the fact that the ECR unit removes more more humidity than the normal air coold system.

I really appreciate all your input---learn something every time that you post.

Tom A

Weezbo

stand by for picture.....real different *~/:)

[Deleted User]

Sam Bandimere's Urban Assault Vehicle...

can be seen at http://www.dxdrilling.com/

Interesting concept for sure.

One of my students said they use a local company at the refinery he works at and that they can do a pretty deep hole using vacuum technology. No muss, no fuss. One day of noise and VIOLA, I've got holes in my back yard for my DX/solar seasonal thermal storage system.

Please don't tell Mrs Eatherton that I plan on drilling holes in her back yard. I thought I'd wait until some weekend when she'll be out of town... and SUPRISE her:-)

Wouldn't be the first suprise, nor will it be the last.

ME

Tom_35

Bandimere's drilling rig

Mark,

The rig that we have do our drilling is the same as what Sam uses. His cousin Dan is the guy we deal with here. We haven't had any location that he couldn't get into with the rig and the amount of physical space needed is minimal.

The project I mentioned in the original post is still going on but we have been providing the radiant heating this winter and the systems have worked well.

Tom Atchley

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Geothermal Heat exchange pit

Tom,

Please elaborate on the 4'x4' pit you speak of. How deep was it? Is groundwater present and expected to flow through it?

Brent_2

geo

Ken
It seems like you are referring mainly to open loop (pump & dump) systems. With a closed loop (we usually do vertical wells) you don't have the problems you list. Our electric utility gives lower rates for electric heat in the winter so that helps payback. We usually figure 7 year payback. Free hot water in the summer is also nice.

Brent

Tom_35

Pit---

Kevin,

The pit is nothing more than a junction box in the ground. After it is dug out, the drill rig drills 2" holes down in the ground at specific angles. If you can envision a Christmas tree, this is what the copper heat exchanger would look like if you could see a cross sectional of the loop in the ground.

Normally 100' bore holes are drilled. Water is not needed and basically makes the job more of a mess if the pit does have water in it. After the copper heat exchangers are put into place, the bore holes are back-filled with a mixing compound to assure good contact with the earth.

The large home we are doing now has 6 ECR direct exchange heat pumps on it, with 4 of the pumps providing on-demand hot water as well as radiant heating and heating/cooling via ductwork.

We increased the size of the Flat Plate heat exchangers and can deliver 130 degree domestic water now, which is a 15 degree rise over what we originally had. The natural gas water heaters will take the water to a higher temp is the homeowners require more than 130.

Tom Atchley