Homeowner in need of help with new system

Steven_4

My wife and I are getting ready to build our first home. We have decided on SIP walls and a conventionally framed roof with foam. We have chosen high efficiency windows all in the hopes of creating a very energy efficient home. We have met with a few plumbers in our area and have gotten a quote that I would like some help understanding.
The house is 2100sq ft with a heat loss of around 38,000btu. We would like to use a propane boiler because of how clean it is and that we already have a gas range and dryer.

The quote reads like this:
Radiant heat in the basement slab hooked up $1600
Stapled up radiant on the first floor (2 zones) $3500
Stapled up radiant on the second floor bathrooms (1 zone) $756
Rest of second floor bedrooms (3) baseboard $275
High efficiency buderus GB142 boiler $3462.65
SS piping to vent boiler $275
Indirect top performer model ss50TP water heater $800.75
Parts for boiler: circ, controls, shutoff $2000
3 lasco showers
PVC and copper $3000
Labor $7000

My questions are these
How do Lasco showers compare to Kohler?
Do we need to an outdoor reset controller and what is the cost?
In a house that is this efficient, do we need to add plates to the staple up? He says that he just uses foil and fiberglass insulation to redirect the heat up towards the floor.
Can we use the high efficiency boiler to run both the radiant, the baseboard and the indirect and will we ever see the 98% efficiency that the buderus page states.
He also spec’ed another boiler option for us, the Buderus GA 124/30. Is there any reason to go with the less expensive model?
Sorry if these are basic questions but I’m starting from scratch. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Steve

Ted_9

I'm concerned about the design in gewneral and this statement "High efficiency buderus GB142 boiler $3462.65 SS piping to vent boiler $275". The GB142 is not a boiler yet, its a heater and if "SS piping to vent boiler $275" mean stainless steel piping then he has no training or expirience with the product he is selling. It vent with PVC here in the states.

Also the pricing seems a bit low(what arent you getting?) but that might be correct in your region.


Talk to some hydronic professionals.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Steven_4

It is true, he has no experience with this boiler, but the supply house just got them in a month ago. Every other plumber was pricing out the GA 124/30 for our project. We were the ones asking him for this boiler. My qustion still stands. With a house this tight, will the boiler ever run at that 98% efficiency or would the GA be a better boiler. And what about the staple up wothout plates?

hr

Ask for a copy of the heat load and design

Or have a radiant designer do one for you to compare. This will help answer the question about transfer plates.

A good design will take into account floor coverings and required temperatures.

There are many ways to install radiant these days. Personally I prefer the transfer plate system, or Warmboard. Others methods will, and do, work IF designed and installed properly, also.

What about cooling and IAQ? Maybe an air handler for the upper bedrooms, instead of baseboard to provide cooling humidification, or dehumidification, filtration, and some air exchanges? Sounds like you are building a tight home that may need some outside air? Look at the whole comfort package, not just the heating.

Go to www.healthyheating.com for some excellent advice, and free downloads, on a "comfort" system. All your comfort questions can be answered at this informitive site

hot rod

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J.C.A._3

Hot Rod,

You've got it brother! I would also be looking for some plates under the tubing, a REAL heat loss evaluation and some kind of IAQ filter/exchanger in a house this tight.

As a small aside....My choice for an indirect would also be to sway from the "Top Performer" as I have replaced too many of them under warranty in the last 5 years.(VERY heavy and combersome to switch out) Ask the contractor for a quote on a HTP Super Stor stainless steel indirect. The initial cost is higher, but with a lifetime warranty to the owner, I feel it is a far better choice and the cost is a moot point as to the diffferences.(This isn't an add on to your new home, this is a necessity and cutting corners here is NOT the way to go!)

Steve, keep asking these kind of questions. You will get exactly what you want if you are the driving force in one of the most important systems, in your new "largest investment". By the way, Here in the great state of Ma., we cannot install the GB142 heating system YET....but I too am looking to install it in my own home when it is available.

To get the benefits of running it in condensing mode whenever possible,the system HAS to be designed properly. Making hot water should be the only time it isn't working while condensing in my opinion. The rest of the system should be designed to keep you comfortable at minimal temps during most of the heating season,to achieve the highly touted effecentcy numbers. Instead of baseboard in the rooms not being heated by radiant, ask about properly sized panel radiators. They will leave you more room to fit furniture around as opposed to baseboard, where the air flow is critical to heating the space. Chris

Mad Dog_2

The guys all gave you great advice and

I would do a lot more homework before you decide on a system or a contractor. If that's the way the quote reads I would want it more understandable and clearer. I'd be confused as well. Did you see if any of The Wall's Professionals are nearby? Mad Dog

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joel_19

way to go!!

Two thumbs up to you for thinking about how much energy you will consume and building such a great house SIPS rule . Or in conventional framing i'd go Icynene. Personally we will not install a staple up job without plates. The whole idea is to get the water temp as low as possable , plates help transfer the energy and spread it out better . This lets you lower the water temp more . Hot Rod has done some graet research into this and it confirms what many of us have suspected for some time.He has excellent pictures of it as well. Outdoor resest is a must have it should be code on every system other than maybe a small bathroom type install. It already is code in some other countries , because it lowers your fuel usage , protects our enviorment and makes your house more comfortable. Don't skip this feature!. those items will make more your house more energy eff and comfy and will add very little to your overall cost and overtime will pay for themselves . Consider , who care if it adds 10$ a month to the mortgage if you save 15 or 20 off your energy bills by doing so? you may be cash flow positive from day one ! JCA : You know buddy you could have a Vitodens in the great state of Mass right now , "There is no substitute"

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Steven_4

thanks for the advice

I appreciate all of the help. We are installing an ERV to deal with the indoor air quality. We have decided on a Stirling technologies recouperator. I will also look into upgrading the water heater. When all of you talk about plates, is there a company you would recommend buying them from?

don_112

A house

that tight should be sway away from infloor with or without
plates....In MHO.

I would be looking for as JCA mention a panel rad system for
quicker responces.

Go ahead and price the plates..just make sure you're setting
down when you hear it.

From reading from the price list of cost per piece..what good contractor does that anyway,I see that once Steve gets to the bottom line price,it will be once again a customer that is scare away from hydronic heat,because the contractor
was so stuck with the thought that infloor is the only way to go here.

Damn..lost another one to the forceair boys.

ALH_3

Huh?

Tight houses shouldn't have radiant floors? Radiators are more responsive than plates? I disagree. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

I agree completely with using panel radiators instead of baseboard.

If the radiant floor with plates is too expensive, scale back the radiant to the kitchen and bathrooms. Use panel radiators everywhere else. There are many ways to keep costs down without compromising comfort, if that's the issue.

-Andrew

don_113

please

be so kind to tell me how a dry system with all the mass of a subfloor and then add the floor covering will have a quicker responce time then a panel rad.

Also keep in mind that with tight home they wont lose there heat as quick, so for me to have a floor emitter in a home that keeps radiant heat long after the stat has turn off the circ.. makes for a very uncomfortable home.

Lets not forget to add the solar gain thru the windows to the equation as well.

Are you saying responce time are not a issue in todays tight
homes with big picture window on the outside walls?

Steven_4

Panel radiators?

> Tight houses shouldn't have radiant floors?

> Radiators are more responsive than plates? I

> disagree. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

>

> I agree

> completely with using panel radiators instead of

> baseboard.

>

> If the radiant floor with plates is

> too expensive, scale back the radiant to the

> kitchen and bathrooms. Use panel radiators

> everywhere else. There are many ways to keep

> costs down without compromising comfort, if

> that's the issue.

>

> -Andrew

Steven_4

Panel radiators?

Are you guys talking about products like Runtal? We looked into them for the bedrooms but the price was cost prohibative. I also did a search through "find a pro" but there was no one in our area.

ALH_3

ok

Use constant circulation with a modulating boiler or reset control.

If the floor is almost the same temperature as the room, there will not be issues with overshooting the thermostat setpoint.

Solar gain is an issue no matter what method you use.

-Andrew

J Matthers_2

Warmboard

or one of the above subfloor panel systems will give you very fast responce. I have a SIP house with Warmboard and enjoy very low heat (98* supply) fast responce IFR. Pricy up front but I smile every time I pay my energy bills. I

ALH_3

Yes

Radiators like Runtal. Runtal may not be the least expensive in the panel radiator market. In general, they're going to be more than baseboard, but less than a radiant floor with plates.

I assume you definitely want outdoor reset. From the sound of things, your contractor might be more comfortable with a cast iron boiler and a tekmar 364. My experience is primarily with Viessmann boilers and there are issues to think about before using a Vitodens in a "combination" system....mixing valves and fixed high limits on the boiler for example. They can be handled, but must be considered before rough-in.

-Andrew

S Ebels

Hmmmm, lot's of questions

If I were you, I'd like to hear from the contractor exactly how the heating system will be controlled. Will there be thermostats for different areas of the house? Does his design make different temps possible in the first place? (thinking of bedroom/bathroom type differences here) How will the ERV interface with the rest of the HVAC system?

Let's see....... 38,000 btu's and 2,100 sq ft comes out to about 18 btu's / sq ft. Not bad, but I'd guess that unless you have a very low design temp or a load of windows it might be on the high side. SIP's are excellent for reducing air infiltration and provide a nice even R-value throughout the wall. If your attic is up to snuff, I would think your total heat loss might be more in the 30K neighborhood or less. Remember that the heat loss calc doesn't consider internal heat gains into the equation. I'd have to run the numbers myself to see.......

Be that as it may, 30K or 38K is not a lot of heat. A suspended tube setup (GASP!!! WHAT HERESY HAVE I SPOKEN!!!) might be all you need for providing adequate floor warming capabilty. You could keep the system very simple by just letting that run at a modulating water temp that provides 80% of your heating needs. Add a few panel radiators to provide the balance of the load and control them with TRV's and you have a fire and forget heating system. It will provide you with unparalleled comfort and the best economy you can achieve with a fuel fired heat source.

Check out www.hydronicalternatives.com and look at the Radson line of panel radiators. Not nearly as pricey as a lot of brands out in the market. We use a ton of 'em.

I don't know what the GB will modulate down to (we can't sell it here in Michigan because it's not ASME rated) but I have a hunch that at normal outdoor temps it won't be able to go low enough to prevent cycling. You might want to consider some type of a buffer tank setup to smooth things out. Ask your contractor what the heat load of your house is at a mild winter temp and you'll see what I mean.

Wayco Wayne

The smallest Buderus G142

is 84000 btu input. It's smallest capacity at full low modulation is 23,000 output. If your heat loss is 38000 then the boiler will be at it's lowest modulation point most of the time except on the very coldest days. It will have to cycle on and off fairly frequently. For really small capacities I like the Munchkn T50 Wall hung boiler. It's max input is 50000, but it can modulate down to 16000 btu output and has a better throttling range for your application. I would like to install one of the new Buderus's though. Looking for the right job. WW

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Steven_4

Does the heat loss include the indirect.

If the indirect is run off the boiler than does the 38000btu number take this into account? Sorry, this may be a basic question.

Unknown

don, if you can't keep a SIP home comfortable with radiant, then your thermostats are woefully unprepared for radiant of any kind.

response time is not an issue, period. More accurately, it is an issue, but it's an issue that can be dealt with very, very easily. You should be designing for near-constant operation anyway, so nudging the system up or down at any time is pretty easy.

My only concern is, as heat load drops, so does that warm floor sensation. I've seen homes where they rarely have that warm foot sensation; great for efficiency, but makes you wonder why go with radiant floor? The comfort value drops there.

In that case, radiant ceiling is a great choice, Around the same price as panel radiators.. even less, sometimes.. but no wall space taken up and even lower water temperatures. Save money on distribution to put into a good heat source (unless the load is even lower still)!

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Unknown

when you are ramping up to satisfy a DHW demand, your load will be high enough to avoid cycling on pretty much any boiler. But those are short-term, periodic demands compared to the constant operation of your heating system in the winter.

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don_106

Thanks Rob

> don, if you can't keep a SIP home comfortable

> with radiant, then your thermostats are woefully

> unprepared for radiant of any kind.

>

> response

> time is not an issue, period. More accurately,

> it is an issue, but it's an issue that can be

> dealt with very, very easily. You should be

> designing for near-constant operation anyway, so

> nudging the system up or down at any time is

> pretty easy.

>

> My only concern is, as heat load

> drops, so does that warm floor sensation. I've

> seen homes where they rarely have that warm foot

> sensation; great for efficiency, but makes you

> wonder why go with radiant floor? The comfort

> value drops there.

>

> In that case, radiant

> ceiling is a great choice, Around the same price

> as panel radiators.. even less, sometimes.. but

> no wall space taken up and even lower water

> temperatures. Save money on distribution to put

> into a good heat source (unless the load is even

> lower still)!

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 340&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

EJW

Steven

Lasco is an inexpensive line. Kohler is head and shoulders above them. I don't want to ruffle any feathers here but I have had only one Top Performer give me problems in the last 4-5 years. That was the coil gasket, and Vaghn stood behind it. EJW

Wayco Wayne

For an indirect

The Munchkin T-50 has a neat feature with it's Vision 1 control package that allows it to fire at 80000 btu's when heating an indirect on priority, then when the indirect is staisfied it will switch back to a 50000 btu boiler. This way it satisfies quicky and gets back to the heating chores. I don't add btus to my heat load for an indirect load. It's over soon enough to not effect the heating side, especially if you have radiant floors that have so much thermal mass that will carry the load while the domestic is calling. WW

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don_115

Thanks

everyone..Thats actually what I'm trying to say Rob,why go
with infloor?

Why even go with a boiler..on this project? At .3 airchanges per hour,and very little load even smaller on mild days..I dont see how adding the extra cost of a modulating lp appliance and then a continious circ,just to
say I have warm feet would do this customer any justice.

Steve..I assume you built a tight home so you would save money on your energy bill.

It would properly be best to check your electric rate verse your lp cost,and you never know a water to water heatpump would properly save you more over a lp appliance.

For the record I never said I could not keep his home comfortable with infloor,I said I would not or it should not have infloor.

To be simply honest,I could keep his home comfortable with
100% efficient toaster in every room.

jerry scharf_3

cycling and a low mass condensing boiler

Steve,

I have a low heat load and a T50. It goes slightly lower than some of the others, but still not very low. So I will have cycling in at some time during most of the heating season.

I looked into this a bit, and with a low mass consending boiler I think the efficiency loss for cycling is small. The munchkin starts up on low fire, and the water is running ready to catch any heat there is. No reason to expect this to be much different with other similar boilers.

jerry

hr

Always size to the largest load

and yes, in more and more cases that is the DHW load. Calculate the DHW load also. It's different for every family based on number of people, bathing, dishwashing, laundry, etc. But as important is the time frame in which the DHW load is present.

If you have a large morning or evening dump load, either you need the BTU's on tap to handle it as it occurs, or enough storage capacity to handle it, then allow a long enough recovery time when the home is empty.

In your case the T-50 that would match the load nicely yet bump to 80K for DHW might be a very good match. Calculate the DHW, and compare it to the heat load to find the best match.

A 38 K boiler may, or may not, be the right answer in your case. 38K does not produce a lot of DHW for a large family with four back to back showers or tubs! And you certainly cannot keep it in DHW priority for hours and hours on design heating days. tekmar and other controls now have features to "watch" the DHW priority time frame for this reason.

hot rod

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Steven_4

Changes to system

Thanks for all of the help. I should point out that the design load was 36,000 BTU's at a design heating temp(outdoors) of -11 degrees. This included the basement making a total conditioned space of aroung 3300 sq ft.
After speaking with a a pro from the wall (unfortuntely no installers in our area) here is the system we are thinking about. LP Buderus GB142/24 with a phase III indirect ( not sure of size yet).
Unfinished Basement will have radiant in the slab.
1st floor 1/2 inch pex stapled up with plates with a floor sensor in the mudroom and connected 3/4 bathroom (floor will be tile). Rest of first floor we will put buderus panel radiators in kitchen, family room and away room. Family room will also have a small jotul woodstove (we have access to a lot of wood from our property.
2nd floor will have 1/2 inch pex with plates in the master bath and childrens bath, again with floor sensors (both tile floors) and buderus panel radiators in each of the 3 bedrooms. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Mark Hunt_2

Steve


Check your e-mail.

I may have a solution for you.

Mark H

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J.C.A._3

See Steve,

Like I said at the onset of this post....If you are a force in the design of your system, you will ask the questions that need to be answered in a real and up-front way.

You've got the answers to give the heating contractor a way to fulfill them. Now it's up to the contractor to find the BEST way to make it happen.

You've also been given the best advice from the sharpest minds in the hydronic heating field....make your dream a reality. Ask for and get what you need and make it the envy of all the neighbors.(show them your fuel bill during a typical Jan./Feb and make them jealous!) Chris

Weezbo

hmmmm...... Well, Triangle Tube has a nice lp boiler that

can modulate along condensing and cranking out the heat demand with occasional soires into domestic Heated Water to keep up with slightly under 100 K Btus....it is called the Solo Prestige ...and the smallest though far from least costly boiler i know of that burns oil is a gizmo thats lashed up to tractor trailer trucks to radiant heat the box carts to about 56 degrees F when running the roads in winter And it is like a fancy Block heater in that it keeps the block(motor) of the truck from cold start in severe winter ....Wabasto or Wabasco they are spendy though as they also run off 24 Vdc or 120 Va.c.