CO Help

Mad Dog_2

just make sure they have co detectors on every floor. On LOng Island, or gas utilty likes to 50 ppm or below, but 55 would fly. Good man to test anyway. Mad Dog

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Maine Ken

Went to a friends house to see about removing gas units and replacing with oil. When I got there I saw that his boiler had never been tested. He told me that he pays for a tuneup everyyear. I could see spider webs and a spider around the cast iron tubes. I don't work on gas, but I pulled out my Testo anyway. When I tested the unit, the first CO reading showed 110ppm. The longer the burner ran the lower the CO number. after a couple minutes it settled to 55ppm. I stayed there. I am assuming that at start up this thing was way over 110ppm.

My question is should there be cause for concern with this level of CO? Again, I do not work on gas. This unit will be replaced within 30-45 days. Should he get someone in to check it out in the meantime? If it were oil, I would dive in.

Maine Ken

Unknown

Those are acceptable readings

as long as they are taken before the draft hood. The allowable level of CO for a boiler/furnace/water heater on gas is 400 PPM. Any reading below 100 PPm is acceptable.

On another note that gas valve that is on there is a model that has had problems and is on recall if it is on propane.

The final thing if this is a steam system are they aware that when they remove the gas (powerpile system) that in a power failure they will no longer have heat? To the best I can see in the picture it is powerpile.

Maine Ken

You know more than I do!!!!!! It has a lit pilot.It is natural, it is hwh and it is coming out. Any guess on how old the unit is?

Thanks!!!!


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Unknown

That unit is vintage 1970's

I would imagine. Too bad they are a nice package. What is it the cost of gas?

Unknown

Matt if KeySpan

wants below 50PPM what do you do with all the condensing stuff that operates at about 75 to 100 and not much less? I find they will not do much better than that. The only ones I have seen less are Viesmann and Buderus.

The Munchkin is higher than 50 also???

I would love to know what you are doing to get them below 50 and still work at design application. I know you have been to Jim's class so I would be curious as to what he is doing with condensing units to get them below 50.

KeySpan up here does not follow that rule I do not believe as we have a lot of Munchkins that are operating above that up here.

jeff_51

tim is absolutely right

anything under 400ppm is acceptable but we like to see 50-55pm or lower. Why not jump in on a gas unit, Certainly easier than oil to set up. You usually plug em in and test em and walk away. In 25 yrs I've never once had to adjust a new one I had just installed. All set up at the factory. I take that back, the new ultra high efficency usually do need a little set up. Just read the destructions for that. THEY ARE REAL EASY

Maine Ken

I do not work on gas. Not trained or licensed to do so. Oil is a much more economical choice in this application. Gas bills are minimum $200/ month year round. Been this way since he has been in the house - three years. For me oil is plug and play!!!! Homeowner also insists on oil. Its a benefit to be able to call around for oil rather than to pay whatever Northern Utilities tells you to!!!

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Maine Ken

I don't know the price of gas. I'll find out next time I'm there.

Thank you.

ps If your interested, you can have that real nice unit when I take it out!!!!

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Mark Hunt_2

Ken

A spike over 100ppm is not uncommon regardless of the fuel.

Your Testo unit is a good unit but they are not designed to catch spikes. They are designed for steady state.

Your readings are within acceptable parameters. CO was steady, below 100ppm. If CO was 100+ the unit needs to be inspected and the reason for elevated CO needs to be addressed. We do not allow any gas or oil appliance to run over 100ppm CO.

Now you may consider oil to be "plug and play", but I have seen oil systems produce CO in excess of 1200ppm. Couldn't have found that with a shaker kit and only found it because I tested for CO along with CO2. Can't do that with a wet kit.

Your numbers were ok since we did not see a fluctuating CO number. Rising CO is a death trap in waiting.

400ppm is not the "allowed" level of CO on heating equipment. 99ppm is. Anything over that and the equipment has to be inspected to find the reason. 400ppm is the point at which the equipment should be shut down even if it is venting properly. Not allowed to run. These numbers do not change when we switch fuels from gas to oil.

Anything over 100ppm is suspect.

E-mail me if you have more questions.

Mark H



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Unknown

Sorry Ken if I misled you

we do have to be very careful with our "words". The 400 PPM is the allowable level per ANSI Standard for equipment. Mark is correct however as there are different actions to be taken with different levels of CO as tested in the equipment itself.

We do not want to leave any equipment at over 100 PPM. When we get to for example gas ovens the ANSI allowable is 800 PPM. I personally will not leave an oven at above 25 PPM.

Here is an interesting true story about an oil man and how he got fooled if you will. A customer called up complaining about headaches and flue like sysmptoms that persisted. She was told to call and have her heating system checked as it may be the cause of her symptoms. The oil man arrived and checked the oil boiler and oil water heater. Every thing was fine with acceptable levels of CO on both. He left after assuring the customer everything was okay. Two days later she and her daughter were rushed to the hospital with CO poisoning - cause the gas oven. The oil tech stated that it was not his job to test the oven WRONG it is our job to check all potential fuel burning equipment which we are aware of. Well you might say I do not fix gas ovens, that is okay but you can leave it off and advise the customer to call a stove repair man.

One other thing here that is incorrect. No equipment is "plug and play" it all needs to be checked as it is not factory adjusted. It has been my experience on at least gas equipment that minor fine tuning is needed on just about every piece of equipment.

Unknown

Question for Mark Hunt

Are you finding on high efficiency condensing equipment that you can adjust CO to below 50 PPM? If so I have not found that to be the case.

I have been working on several test cases and find 75 is about as low as I can get. Just curious if you guys have come up with some way to change the flame propagation on these units to get below 50 PPM?

Mark Hunt_2

Hi Tim

HTP requires CO readings of 80 to 110(depending on model) when the units are in high-fire and 10ppm in low fire. I adjust them according to HTP specs and I would imagine that an attempt to get CO well below 100ppm would result in a lock out. The flame rectification would drop out and the unit would shut down.
I suspect that the reason CO levels are allowd to be this high on those units has to do with the sealed combustion aspect.

On the Buderus GB and the Viessmann Vito, we never saw CO levels higher than 20+ COppm during high fire. They have very different burners than the Munchkin which is why I believe they operate with lower CO levels.

Mark H

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Mad Dog_2

Yes, Tim ,sorry

I believe Ken was talking about standard atmospheric equipment, so that is how I addressed it. Mr Hunt has done alot more work on the 90+ equipment. I will defer to him. Still learning there! Mad Dog

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Maine Ken

Thanks guys,

My referal to oil being plug and play was towards a gas comment that they are set at the factory and usually don't need any adjusting. All of my installs are thougherly tested and adjusted. I have just done it enough that it is second nature and in a way plug and play. I have NEVER installed a system that was set at the factory that didn't need to be adjusted. All of my equipment operates below 50ppm, most below 25ppm before I leave.

I repeat I do not believe in install out of the boxes and forget it. Plug and play means, install, check, verify, test, and oh yeah test.

Maybe someday I will pursue training and licensing for gas, but for now, I can't keep up with the oil work.

Again, thank you all for your responses.

Maine Ken

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Mad Dog_2

No sweat Ken, we all make off the cuff comments sometimes

You always seem responsible and conscientious. Mad Dog

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Unknown

Mark that is what I

am finding. I believe the answer is radiant burner design which causes flame temperatures at the burner to stay very high on Viesmann and Buderus models.

I have had problems on condensing warm air furnaces with high CO which was very diffcult to bring down simply due to burner and chamber design. I have left a few at around 125 to 150 PPM simply could not get them any lower. I have even tried higher and lower RPM power venters (combustion air blowers) and it does not seem to matter much. I have recently done some minor alterations on burners and was able to change the port loading which was very succesful. The problem is I am changing the design and local officials around here have given me a warning about that.

Jim Davis_3

CO levels-Timmie

I do not recommend CO levels below 50ppm except on unvented equipment. 11-99ppm is the recommended range for vented equipment although some equipment today has recommended levels slightly above 100ppm which is then acceptable. Just lowering the CO reading for no other reason than to lower it can cause a distinct loss of efficiency which would certainly benefit a utility. Oxygen & Flue temperature have to taken into account for final set points, not just CO. Many pieces of equipment are more efficient making 50ppm to 100ppm of CO than those making less.

Unknown

I agree Jim - but

what about gas ovens? I have found that I can keep most ovens at design input and still get CO below 50 PPM. How do you feel about that? Is that what you are referring to as unvented? I tend to think of unvented as a space heating appliance with no vent, but of course ranges are also typically unvented.

Jim Davis_3

Ovens are one of the unvented appliances that especially concern me. The closer to 0 ppm you can get all unvented appliances the better.