Wood Boiler

Keith_8

seem to be the key.

How many months out of the year do you feed the fire?

It would seem to make sense to burn a conventional fuel for domestic hot water in the warm months.

Keith

Keith

Nick_16

Wood Boiler

Does someone make an indirect with 1 1/4" inlets and outlets? I know that with wood boilers, the outside kind, many people hook them to an indirect's coil and use that to heat the water in the indirect for heating. I was looking at Central Boiler brand. They give you 1 1/4" connections from the wood boiler but most indirects I've seen only have 3/4" connections. Some people might also use plate heat exchanger but I don't know. The indirect would be nice because you would have some storage even after the water in the boiler got cold. Please let me know any ideas.

kevin coppinger_4

Phase 3 ...

and its twin weil Mclain gold plus both have 1.25" tappings also superstor has 1" tappings...kpc

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Nick Dearing

Well

for all you people out there who have wood boilers, how do you have then piped?

Keith_8

How effective are they?

Have been looking into the outdoor woodstoves lately.

The odor, dirt and bugs associated with burning wood inside have always detered me from giving it a try.

At what price does burning wood make sense?

Seems pretty straight forward a heat exchanger inside, some insulated pex buried to the remote wood stove and feed the fire 2 x a day.

Could it be that easy?

Keith

S Ebels

Yep, it's that easy

If you get someone else to cut, haul, split, stack, store and finally wade through the snow to load it into the boiler and burn it.

Beware of the outdoor units on the market today. Many of them were/are designed and built by metal fab shops with little to no knowledge of combustion and heat transfer. They are grossly in-efficient. Lot's of them claim 80% efficiency but have never had their units tested by a certified lab. I'd say most run about 40-50% at best.

Check out Tarm and/or Garn. They both have a gasification type burning system and will run above a certified 80% level. Both units can easily be enclosed if you want them out of the house.

Nick Dearing

Yes, Outdoor Boilers

are supposted to be nice. As for the cost, I can get all of my wood for free so my heat is 99% free. As for how much wood, I currently require about 120 MCF of gas/year. I would need about 5 truckloads of wood to provide that. I don't think that's bad. I don't mind cutting and stacking the wood. I like to work outside and I work from home mostly. Also, the outside boilers, I like Central Boiler brand, doesn't require that the wood be split and you can load up to 4 ft. long logs.

Nick_16

I don't know

I don't have the boiler yet. I wanted to find out how people hooked them up. I know people who light a fire once a week thru the summer for there hot water.

S Ebels

Big pieces

Not true. They give the illusion of efficiency because they burn longer. What your aim should be is effcient heat transfer and the ability to store the heat in the form of hot water, not how long you can go without filling the stove.

The big pieces last longer because they don't expose as much surface area to the flame as a high number of small pieces.
Figure it out. What has more surface area, a single piece of wood 12" in diameter or 6 pieces that are 4" in diameter weighing roughly the same. Some things are not what they seem.

The big pieces also last longer because of lower flame temps usually generated in that scenario. They don't combust as fast. Lower flame temps = lower effciency = more creosote.

Maybe Martin Lunde or one of the Nichols brothers from Tarm will chime in on this. I'm sure they could do a better job of explaining what I so inadequately described.

Nick Dearing

I don't

disagree with you on efficiency. I am simply stating that the boiler doesn't require the logs to be split and that you can put up to 4ft. long logs in the machine. I am not sure on the exact effciency but supposedly I can get the same BTU output from 5-6 truckloads of wood that I can get with 120 MCF of gas. Does this sound resonable? I know people who have an indoor Roco multi-fuel boiler and they burn almost 10 truckloads of wood in a year for about the same output. They used to use about 125 MCF gas/year. I'm sorry if I sound rude but I don't mean to. I am only getting information from people who burn wood currently or boiler manufactures.

S Ebels

No rudeness observed or offense taken

How much wood (face cords) in a truckload? What size truck? Pickup?

I'm just trying to get a handle on how many pounds of wood you're talking about. This will give at least a rough indication of btu's you're going through.

Also your reference to MCF, is the 1,200 cubic feet or 12,000. The use of roman numeral M is used differently by different people.

hr

A good buffer/ indirect

might be a reverse indirect like the Ergomax. It holds the boiler water in the tank and generates DHW via the copper coil bundle. Available in 23- 109 gallon capacity. I believe they all have 1-1/2" boiler connections.

I do a lot of wood boilers and would also steer you to a high efficiency unit. Both for wood consumption and the enviroment. Steve is correct. my sources tell me labs have tested basic outdoor wood burners innthe 40 -45% range.

So 40% (maybe) useable heat and 60% smokey emissions

Look into the new Aquatherm Omega for high efficiency yet an "American" sized firebox. Should be on the market as we speak.

hot rod


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pw

wood doctor

check out "thewood-doctor.com"

Dave Laursen_2

New Aqua-Therm Omega

Thanks for the mention Hotrod. Yes, Aqua-Therm does have a new "stove" available.

We had looked at all the current technologies that are used in all wood stoves and see the same thing with all. You can claim certain effiencies but based on what? All the stoves out there, our Aqua-Therm model included, work on some basic principles. Load with wood, whatever size, light the fire and let it burn. As it burns, it heats the water jacket that surrounds the firebox. It's the way we all do it. The problem with that is that it NEVER allows for all 3 stages of combustion, based on the laws of physics.

The three laws are fairly simple. Wood starts to burn, boiling out the moisture (212 degrees), wood starts to change it's chemistry (500 - 600 degrees) and starts to put out volatile gases as it breaks down. Those gases contain between 50-70% of the available energy from the wood. Typically at this point, we all (manufacturers) allow those gases to escape out the stack.

Some will claim that they increase "burn time" but to reach stage 3, it requires constant temperatures of >1100 degrees to ingnite the gases, changing their moleculer structure. It is virtually impossible to achieve temps of 1100 degrees when any firebox is located next to the water jacket because "quenching" takes place. How do you get the temps into that range when you surround it with 180 degree water? Does not work. Can not work (unless you know how to change the laws of physics).

Aqua-Therm has just introduced a new stove that works on the gasification principles. Firebox holds the wood, draft is induced and drives the gases through the coal bed (which see temps in the 1200-1600 degree range) creating superheated exhaust that has taken most of the available energy from the fuel source, in this case the wood, and drives the gases throgh a seperate chamber to heat the water. The key here is that the firebox and the water jacket never see each other, and, the gases are ignited on a consistent basis. All 3 stages of combustion take place. The stove, and by the way, we're now calling it an appliance, is U.L. tested and will soon have ASME. It is all stainless steel and manufactured in one of the most state of the art facilities in the Twin Cities, laser cut, robotics, etc. Each unit is produced to a tollerance of 1/1000th of an inch.

Sorry to ramble, but am very excited with our new product that has been in development for quite some time. This industry is ready to be dragged into the 21st century.

Thanks for the forum,

Dave Laursen
President/CEO
Aqua-Therm, LLC
800.325.2760
davidlaursen@aol.com

Dave Laursen_2

Not to continue rambling

I have watched in silence for the last few years but now my mouth, ok fingers, have started to speak. I would like to implore everyone in this industry to make claims that are true and valid. We confuse the customers, we produce products that are old technology, we put out literature that make outrageous claims. and we only hurt ourselves, the industry, the environment, and our customers.

Truth is all that needs to be told. The customer will decide.

GaryDidier

Outdoor wood stove

I hope I never have to be down wind of one of these wood stoves, Especially in the summer. I can always tell when someone has one operating by the cloud of smoke that envelopes the area.

Most localities in my area (upstate NY) are outlawing or heavily regulating these wood stoves because of smoke and pollution issues

I don't feel that the current generation of stoves offer a good payback when you factor in the capitol costs of purchasing the equipment and installation. Most I have seen are poorly installed and produce gobs of creasote attesting to their inefficiency.

I feel that this type of stove would work much better within the envelope of the building. This way the standby heat loss would stay in the building and it could be properly vented through a standard chimney.

Regards, Gary from Granville

Nick Dearing

MCF

The back of my gas bill says MCF=1,000 cubic feet, so I would say 120,000 cubic feet.

PJO_7

Ergomax...

The 26 gallon models (one w/3 coils and one w/f4) are 1" boiler connections (I have an E23 - three coils). The next two sizes are 1 1/4" boiler hookups (E 44 and E45 w/ 48 gallons of boiler water and 4 or 5 coils). All three of these have 1 1/4" domestic connections.

The E65 is 72 gallons and 1 1/2" size for domestic and boiler, and the big one (E 109) is 2" hookups for both with 119 gallons of boiler water.

Hope this helps...I think the Ergomax is great, although it is a bit pricey it's just a tad more than a "regular" indirect.

Take Care, PJO

Nick_16

Yes,

I was thinking about using a "backwards" indirect. Thanks for the suggestion.

Nick_16

Please,

don't think you are rambling. I want to hear everyone's input. That is what The Wall is for. I understand what you are saying. The Central Boilers brand does have what they call a "Heat Lock" baffel before gases can escape. They do discuss 3 burining stages in there pamplet. I don't see how it could be true after hearing what you said though.

Dave Laursen_2

Gary,
It is exactly the reasons you state that we have developed the new Omega (read a few threads up). I, along with ALL the other wood stove manufacturers are very familier with what is happening in New York. These stoves bellow huge amounts a smoke, are an eye sore (literally and figurativley), and operate with-in 30-40% effiencies. The key to eliminating all of that has been in temperature. If you read combustion therory, you know that to ignite the 50-70% of available energy that normally would be lost through the stack is to maintain a temp of 1100 degrees and greater. At those temps, you "incinerate" most of the particulate matter, leaving mostly carbon dioxide and water. Current stove designs are not capable of handeling those extreme temperatures (we see temps of 1400 to 1600 in our new product)

We too want to see the "smoke engines" change

Dave Laursen
President/CEO
Aqua-Therm, LLC

hr

Good points, doctor

Most of the wood boilers are installed indoors in Europe. Insurance issues are the main reason the US market has gone to outdoor models.

I have installed a few gasification units outdoors in insulated sheds. This gets around the insurance requirements yet still gets you the higher efficiency (much less smoke)from gasification.

I would guess, HOPE, that all the wood burner manufactures are working on cleaner burner appliances. If not they will probably be out of business soon for the reasons you mentioned.

Ideally you would have a small DHW solar installation to provide a large chunk of your summer DHW needs. this eliminates the need for summer burning just to produce DHW.

Seems a clever outdoor wood burning manufactur would build a panel into the roof of their shelter as an option. this would go a long watys towards making them "greener"

hot rod

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Jed_2

Turbomax

I definitely agree, Patrick. I have recently sold four of these tanks for specific appplications, one being a HX for an outdoor wood furnace. They are "Battle Tanks" for sure. Pierre has been very helpful on these jobs. But, He NEEDS help with the volume of work he is faced with, from my experience. Ergomax Turbomax water heaters provide a 10 year Warranty, even for Commercial applicacations. I have not been able to find any other warranty, commercially, to match it.

Jed

p.s. Oh! they are Thermo 2000 2000:http://www.thermo2000.com/index_e.htm

GaryDidier

Wood boiler set up

Hot Rod, Do you have a problem with having to dump excess BTU's and how do you do it. Also would you mind showing a simple schematic of a wood boiler and how to tie it into the home boiler.

Thanx, Gary from Granville

jerry scharf_3

Is there a web site

Dvae,

You don't mention one and my poking at google didn't turn one up. I'd like to learn more about this. In particular, how much load do you have to have on the boiler to keep the firebox at that high temperature.

thanks,
jerry