Cast iron boiler failures / leaking sections

loose cannon

I spend quite a bit of time in ther commercial boiler world, and I can say with a high degree of confidence that none of the big three cast iron boiler manufacturers have chronic cracking problems with their sections when installed properly. On the other hand any brand of boiler will crack if it abused. If you are experiencing cracks in the legs over and over again you more than likley have a return water temperature issue. Is your system on night setback or outdoor reset? Are you getting spurts of ambient temperature water returning to the boiler from off-cycle rediation? 70-degree water hitting a 180-degree boiler can wreck havoc on the iron, and not all stamped plans ensure consistent delta T's and proper flows. I've seen many jobs laid out by architects that had no provisions for boiler protection, check with the manufacturer's instructions or design guides regarding proper piping design.
As some of the other respondants have suggested, call the manufacturer or manufacturer's rep to come out and have a look-see. Have that burner set up to fire at the proper rate also, an oout-of-whack burner can cause a host of problems.

Jack Ennis Martin

Leaking boiler sections on relatively new boilers on hot water

I have a question for the Wall; because it goes all over the world and if I am going to get some intelligent information, it should be here. The largest school division in Manitoba is up in arms regarding the failure of relatively new section boilers on hot water. The oldest boiler was installed in 1997. The sections are leaking on these boilers to the extent that they feel that the boilers have to be cbanged out. The boilers are one of the three big manufacturers/ not Wiel Mclean ,so that narrows it down some. I will not name the make of the boiler because I do not want a law suit for slander. My question is: Has anyone else had problems with sectionals popping leaks after such a short time? One boiler ,I am very familar with ,and it has leaked at the same section in the same relative place ,four times to my knowledge. However, there is a fly in the ointment; in this particular installation. The boiler is a power burner and it howls on high fire and literally skakes the boilers on the pads. The vibration was so bad ,I was contracted to install a vibrasorber in the main hot water feed line off number one boiler, in an attempt { I suppose }, to dampen down the vibration being transmitted to the boiler as a whole. In my opinion, the combustion is / was set up incorrectly, for this model of boiler. It seems to me to be aggressively overfired. This boiler, to the best of my knowledge, has escaped the leaking section woes number two has had. All the boilers were installed as per an engineers stamped blueprint and no diviation was made from this plan, to the best of my knowledge. What does everyone think? Why are these boilers leaking at the sections / pin hole leaks in the side of the sections. I could see excessive potable water being taken on in a steam installation ,leading to corrosion of the section from oxygen: but, these are all on hot water? The boilers have all been cleaned by Dearborn Chemical and the boiler water dosed with hot water inhibiter chemicals by the folks at Dearborn on startup; so, it has been done correctly. I have my own ideas: but, that is only one persons thoughts, I want to have the heating community offer ideas as to what they can see as possible causes.

Thanks and I am very interested in what ideas come forward.

While, I am on the computer and to be honest angry, I want some other opinions that do not have anything to do with heating. My two sons enjoy American Chopper on the Discovery Channel. They asked me to watch the last episode with them ,which I did. The kid called Paul Junior seems to make nasty comments about folks that are retarded. I become incensed, when someone is so crass, as to use people who have a very serious problem as a putdown for someone elses intellegence. I would suggest, that such lousy remarks, will eventually come back to haunt them in time.We all know the road to building a business up is long and hard: but, the road down is quick and slippery. I hope someone clues this kid in to what he is doing before he has ruined his fathers business.Thanks for letting me rant.
All the best to one and all

Jack Ennis Martin

lchmb

curious

I would guess from reading your post these boiler's were built in place (section's put together one at a time)? If this is the case were they drawn together and sealed properly. Have you by any chance contacted the manufacturers to see if they will do an onsite inspection? Another thing I am curious on is the overfiring issue. Were all boiler's fired the same and are they to spec's? Are all of the boiler's vibrating? As to the issue with Paul Jr on American chopper. I am not sure of the comment your talking about but he does have a niece that is handicapped and has raised a large amount of money to help support those in need. Just FYI on that. Not making an excuse for the man.

Steamhead

Jack, one company I know of

had some problems like you describe, but saw that everything was taken care of.

Many manufacturer's representatives maintain a presence here on the Wall. If there is a problem with their gear they will want to know about it. IMHO you won't upset anyone here by naming the boiler and burner manufacturers, and this would probably lead to your getting in touch with some of their people who can resolve the problem. So the first thing I'd have you do is take the needed steps to get in touch with the manufacturer. If you've already done this, what were the results?

I completely agree that leaky boilers and howling, vibrating burners are bad news. Let's see what we can do to help you straighten this out.

I don't watch much TV and have never seen American Chopper, so can't help you there.

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Weezbo

Over fired boilers is not the manufacturers problem...

Setting the firing rate and making the correct calibrations at the time of install is the contractors job.

EBEBRATT-Ed

If this is the boiler I am thinking of there used to be a chronic problem with installers using pipe dope/gasket cement to hold the gaskets in place during assembly which is a no no and would cause leaks later on.

I did have one on a steam job that leaked after one year of operation due to a bad casting and the manufacturer covered this promptly.

The only other failure I saw was cracks in the casting due to over tightening the sections there were hairline cracks near the draw rods (which were found using the cleaner, dye , penetrant) which over time the cracks grew larger and traveled into the lower gasket ports. The original instruction had no torque spec's they require a torque wrench to be used now.

I beleive they have changed the gasket material. This particular model has been around since about 1977??? If my memory is correct.


ED

STEVE N

I think

I think you are on the right track with your thinking. If you have a section leak in the same spot 3 or 4 times that tells us something is consistantly wrong in the set up. The vibration and howling tells us the same thing. I think the flame may impinging on the walls of the section. Consider this, if a power burner flame is consistanty hitting a section you are going to get major vibration, and excessive wear. Howling is another sign of set up problem which could be part of the impinging problem as well. I have seen this problem before and it was due to the wrong angle with oil and with gas it was in the post mix head. Im just trying to give you a few ideas. It may not be a boiler problem as much as a burner problem.

I am the branch manager for a large plumbing / heating supplier. If you want to email me with some more info, I may be able to get you hooked up with the right people or some good info.

Good luck
Steve

Mad Dog_2

What exactly did he say Jack?

I know I've been guilty of using the word "retard' to describe a person of normal intelligence who may act like a jerk...Very common New York street parlance. Yes it is rude and crude. However, directing toward a person with disabilities is cruel and vicious. Were they actually making fun of a person with real problems or just throwing the term around? Don't forget, either, these guys are bikers, dude, not guys that go to Yoga class, drink green tea, and sing in a barber shop quartet. Curious to know how it went down. Boiler sections, from what you describe, it doesn't sound like a rubber gasket like which several manufacturer's have had happen. Am I correct? I've seen bad castings on many a new brand new boiler. Mad Dog

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Boiler Guy

Jack

This scenario sounds familiar. I may have looked at this installation as well. In my opinion, from the information I was able to obtain, there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye. If it is the same job I am familiar with there is/was a burner and setup problem.

S Ebels

Couple thoughts

Consider that a flow problem can also cause horrendous noise and vibration. I guess I'd start with the basic checks on the burner, fuel pressure, combustion test, etc. Also check the PH and see if the water is getting aggressive.