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Weil McLain/Burnham steam boiler equipment help?
Jim Farrell
Member Posts: 46
Remember that Automatic Water Feeders are ok but someone looking after the boiler during the heating season is the best bet...if you don't have to put in a automatic feeder than don't and you go down stairs and maintain the steam boiler by looking at the boiler everyother day...Then you will tell if there are any problems....The nice thing about the VXT Feeder is that it measures the ammount of fresh water added to the boiler and the more fresh water added to the boiler then the more chance you have a leak somewhere and fresh water can cause other issues like mineral and lime deposits could settle in the water way of the sections and over time crack the cast iron section and leak...So it kind of a double edge swoard...If you can request a Weil-McLain Boiler with a # 67 Low Water Cut Off so you can clean and drain the low water cut off and add the water to the boiler yourself...Also maybe reccommend to the installing contractor to pipe the boiler feed with Hot Water instead of cold that will lesson the chance of cracking the section when water is being added to the boiler...Also while adding hot water to the boiler for fill make sure you only crack the the fill valve not open it wide open due to the fact the faster you fill the boiler with cold or hot water the better chance you will have to crack the sections....Look at the Weil-McLain Installation Instructions and Homeowner User Guide and it tells you how to maintain the boiler as the homeowner...Make sure you follow these instructions because when you maintain the boiler correctly then it will last a very long time...
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Comments
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Weil McLain/Burnham or other for new steam system?
Hi,
Still trying to get new steam system installed. Weil McLain boiler and Beckett burner being recommended, but that was the system that failed after 15 years.
Doesn't seem like there are a lot of options for a steam system. We are not wanting to change over to anything else, like gas or fhwater. We have a small 1200sqft house. Straightforward install in a basement with a bulkhead.
What we want is a boiler/burner system that lasts about 40 years and doesn't need very much attention aside from an annual service call. We want the best fuel efficiency we can get. We would like not to have the boiler working during the summer, if we can help it. We want a low water cut off that WORKS. What else do we want? Anything we haven't thought of?
So are those are only choices? Weil McLain or Burnham? Is there a consensus on which is better? If WM, then which one? I have been reading posts and getting confused. Some say the GOLD, some say no it leaks...
People recommend the Burnham because of its steel gaskets, but oil person said they had a major recall on one series and the newer ones have only been around 5 years.
I wonder why there isn't a great boiler/burner combo out there now. One of our neighbor's is still using the old 40 yr old system that we replaced and now we are replacing again a 15 yr old system!0 -
Either boiler is an
excellent choice.
The old debate about steel vs. rubber gaskets cuts both ways. Both have advantages, neither has much wrong.
Use the brand your installer feels most comfy with.
Realize however, a steam boiler requires a savvy homeowner! One cannot lay blame for shortened boiler life on the oil companies minimal maintenance alone. You cannot get a $120/year service maintenance contract and expect the oil company to do much more than change filter(s), put a new nozzle in and perhaps, underline perhaps, clean the fire-sides and chimney base; then if lucky, have them dial-in the burner with instruments - and document their findings.
If you're willing to gamble, you might want to wait until Burnham formally releases their new steamer. Rumor has it, it will be THE standard by which all others will be judged.
Also, why not use the "Find A Professional" search near the top of this website feature? You should be a ble to find a steam specialist in your area. With few exceptions, the best of the best contractors are listed there.0 -
questions
why did the WM go?? it shouldn't
was it too small?
did they ever clean the Low Water Cut Off??
WM makes a great boiler
every year in addition to standard oil maintenenance {vac - oil filter- nozzle- test } a tech is supposed to clean and check your LWCO,clean pig tail and check pressure control, flush returns and boiler,clean glass gage, check vents, check auto feed, and most LWCO manufacturers recommend that you replace the LWCO every 5-10years.
why did your boiler go??
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Adam
> Hi,
>
> Still trying to get new steam system
> installed. Weil McLain boiler and Beckett burner
> being recommended, but that was the system that
> failed after 15 years.
>
> Doesn't seem like
> there are a lot of options for a steam system.
> We are not wanting to change over to anything
> else, like gas or fhwater. We have a small
> 1200sqft house. Straightforward install in a
> basement with a bulkhead.
>
> What we want is a
> boiler/burner system that lasts about 40 years
> and doesn't need very much attention aside from
> an annual service call. We want the best fuel
> efficiency we can get. We would like not to have
> the boiler working during the summer, if we can
> help it. We want a low water cut off that WORKS.
> What else do we want? Anything we haven't
> thought of?
>
> So are those are only choices?
> Weil McLain or Burnham? Is there a consensus on
> which is better? If WM, then which one? I have
> been reading posts and getting confused. Some
> say the GOLD, some say no it leaks...
>
> People
> recommend the Burnham because of its steel
> gaskets, but oil person said they had a major
> recall on one series and the newer ones have only
> been around 5 years.
>
> I wonder why there isn't
> a great boiler/burner combo out there now. One
> of our neighbor's is still using the old 40 yr
> old system that we replaced and now we are
> replacing again a 15 yr old system!
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.0 -
Adam
> Hi,
>
> Still trying to get new steam system
> installed. Weil McLain boiler and Beckett burner
> being recommended, but that was the system that
> failed after 15 years.
>
> Doesn't seem like
> there are a lot of options for a steam system.
> We are not wanting to change over to anything
> else, like gas or fhwater. We have a small
> 1200sqft house. Straightforward install in a
> basement with a bulkhead.
>
> What we want is a
> boiler/burner system that lasts about 40 years
> and doesn't need very much attention aside from
> an annual service call. We want the best fuel
> efficiency we can get. We would like not to have
> the boiler working during the summer, if we can
> help it. We want a low water cut off that WORKS.
> What else do we want? Anything we haven't
> thought of?
>
> So are those are only choices?
> Weil McLain or Burnham? Is there a consensus on
> which is better? If WM, then which one? I have
> been reading posts and getting confused. Some
> say the GOLD, some say no it leaks...
>
> People
> recommend the Burnham because of its steel
> gaskets, but oil person said they had a major
> recall on one series and the newer ones have only
> been around 5 years.
>
> I wonder why there isn't
> a great boiler/burner combo out there now. One
> of our neighbor's is still using the old 40 yr
> old system that we replaced and now we are
> replacing again a 15 yr old system!
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.0 -
Adam
Just wanted to clarify a couple of things regarding incorrect information that you may have received. The was no recall on any of our boilers. It had more to do with a series of oil-fired boilers or V-7 boilers that were developing thermal stress cracks in hot water applications only. We have and continue to stand behind these regardless of the many possible field reasons why this may occur. The V-7 series was replaced with the V-8 boiler nearly 10 years ago and has proven to be a very good performer. It also happens to be the most installed oil=fired boiler in the US today. Cast iron construction, large water contents and a non-aggressive firing rate make for that good performance.
As stressed in other posts, it is imperative
that your installer does more than simply pipe in a new boiler. He should be concentrating on that "old steam system" to loook for possible leaking steam, leaking water and vents that are either missing or non-funtional. The life of the new boiler can certainly be cut short by an improperly function or ill system. If you choose to use an automatic water feeder device, use one that has capabilities of monitoring amounts of makeup water such as the hydrolevel VXT120. Also pay attention to the ph of the boiler water as an ill system can change that due to unvented Carbon Dioxide and steam collapsing in the mails due to the insulation possibly being removed. Hope this helps.
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.0 -
Why
Adam,
Is there a reason given why the WM failed? You stated it won't run in the summer, I assume you get hot water from another source. If in fact it is down in the summer make sure it is cleaned in the spring while it is still running and warm!!! These guys don't like to set cold, moisture builds up and makes an awful mess, one I spent three hours this afternoon cleaning. Burnham is a stand up company and the new boiler coming out sounds too good to be true(may try one in my house). But presently for steam I prefer a Peerless EC I haven't seen one fail in a steam application but I have seen all the other brands fail at one time or another.
Good Luck,
Leo0 -
Thanks for the input.. :-)
Hi,
Ken, thanks for your input. Glad to know there was no major problem with what has been recommended to us. As for the steam boiler requiring a savvy homeowner, well, not really sure what is meant by that. As a homeowner, the only contact we have with anyone that would know what is needed for our heating system are the professionals who install and service our equipment. If there is something required of the homeowner, it should be the responsibility of those professionals to make it clear to the homeowner. Before we had a steam boiler, we had hot water in previous homes, and for all of our lives up until having a steam boiler, we never had to think about the heating system. It required nothing of us as far as we ever knew and it never had a problem in our experience.
With the steam boiler that came with our house, we contracted with a heating company to service the boiler. We asked questions, and followed directions about checking the water in the glass, adding water if necessary and draining it. Had them come out once a year to service it, and brought to their attention problems we noticed. We asked at different times about why we were filling up water in the boiler, 2x a week, and why one room was always cold, and why the water in the glass was usually discolored, etc etc. Unfortunately, as homeowners with no expertise in the care of this equipment, we had no way of knowing if his responses were correct or not. We had no way of knowing if the installation was optimum or even correct. We have to 'trust' service people all the time. Unfortunately, we trusted someone who wasn't as trustworthy as we thought he was. So hopefully, this time around, we will know a little bit more than we did the last time. As for what the homeowner expects, I expect the companies offering to service my equipment to tell me what it takes to keep my system working optimally and that if they are offering me a $120 year contract that it covers what is needed. Why would they set up the terms of the contract to cover work that is not adequate to keep the system running right?
Gene...the WM boiler went because the low water cut off didn't work.
Glenn...thanks for correcting the information I was given. I should have been more careful of what I said on a public forum and certainly don't want to be reporting misinformation. I also am glad you pointed out to me that consideration of the whole system and how the new equipment fits into it is important. I was forgetting that part of it. Now that you point that out, a couple of the people we have talked to have brought some of these issues into the discussion and some of them did not. One company said they recommended replacing all the valves on all the radiators at the time of the install. Two companies, the subject of how much water we were having to add to the boiler came up and with two others it never came up at all. Last winter we had to add water to the boiler about twice a week. We had a radiator in the kitchen that hissed a lot and the kitchen would get pretty steamy. We also had one room that was always cold. Other than that, we had no other problems that we were aware of. Our service man was here to service the boiler 4 months ago and didn't alert us to any problems that existed at that time.
Two companies suggested the automatic feed and pointed out that there is new equipment that uses an electronic feed for the low water shut off. So we were planning on going with both of those. Are you recommending a part that does the monitoring? Is it an automatic feed part that is called VXT120? How do we pay attention to the ph, do we ask the installer to check it? Our old boiler is out of commission so we can't check what the water was in that system. Is checking the ph something that an installer would probably do and not bring to our attention anyway?
Thank you all for the input. :-)0 -
Hi Leo,
The WM failed due to a low water cut off valve not working. No, I didn't mean we don't run our system in the summer, we wish we could not use it at all during the summer months. Right now we have a coiless water heater on the boiler and a booster tank. So the system kept coming on during the summer and we noticed that heat was coming out of the radiators during the summer months, which we brought to the attention of the service people and they double talked us and basically said it might come on sometimes. Since asking around, we have had 3 people tell us it was an adjustment that could have been made, and we shouldn't have been getting heat in the summer.
Someone has been offering us the option of switching over to a stainless steel hot water heater with a lifetime warranty and leaving the coil water heater off the boiler. Pretty expensive hot water tank, but from what we understand the usual ones we have, only last about 5 years and this one is about that old now. Wonder what anyone would think of that suggestion? I thought if we didn't have the water heater off the burner, we could shut it off in the summer, no?
Peerless, huh? After having called about 5 companies, 2 of which were plumbing and heating contractors, no one recommended anything other than WM or Burnham.
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WM and Burnham
Weil McLain and Burnham may be the most stocked in your area, Peerless is popular here. I have a feeling you are speaking about an indirect water tank, if so they are heated from the boiler and that is a good choice. Given the Low Water Cutoff failed you can't blame that on WM. Actually most of the boiler companies use pretty much the same low water cut off's. I am going to E Mail you something.
Leo0 -
RE: VXT-120
Adam,
The VXT Hydrolevel Water feeder works well with the Low Water Cutoff that we provide which is also made by Hydrolevel. It provides a digital readout of the approximate amount of watr that has been introduced to the boiler. This allows you to monitor water usage and to be more aware of excess makeup water.
All it takes is one leaking radiator valve or air vent to cause excessive makeup water to occur. Lost steam will always end up as lost usable boiler water.
The people servicing steam boilers will seldom check the ph of the water even though it is addressed in the installation instruction manual as something that needs to be checked. It sounds like you are on the right track with the people that advised changing out the possible leaking valves. Regardless of your decision in choosing a brand of boiler, check the integrity of the system on a regular annual basis and be ever mindful of the introduction of excessive makeup water. Hope this helps.
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
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Adam,
I prefer the VXT 120 feeder that Glenn mentioned over even a manual feed. The VXT gives you a digital readout of the gallons of water used. With a manual feed, the only way you have of knowing the system is using more water is if you have to add it more often.
If you have had to add water 2 times a week since the boiler was new, it is quite possible that there was a problem before the boiler was installed. The hissing in the kitchen, and the fact it gets "steamy" would indicate a bad radiator vent. As Glenn pointed out, that steam is water lost from the boiler.
All boilers use some water. the problem is that fresh water will rot out the boiler. With the VXT, if you check the reading at least once a month, you can find out there is a problem and get it corrected before it destroys the boiler. The VXT manual lists maximum recommended water usage. The boiler manual should also list what the manufacturer wants for maximum usage.
I use only Burnham boilers. I have had two v-8 boilers (steam) fail at an early age. One we could find no cause. The other was due to a PH problem. In both cases, Burnham stood behind the boiler and provided a free replacement.
The indirect water heater will allow your boiler to only run as needed. The hot water usage will run the boiler enough in the summer to keep it dried out, which will prolong the life of the boiler, and also make servicing easier and more thorough. You should not get heat in the summer when the boiler runs for hot water!
Hope this is of some help,
Scott0 -
Thank you all for helping me. We feel a little better prepared to ask questions and evaluate potential professionals.
Glenn, thank you for the suggestion for the VXT 120. We will make sure that is part of our installation.
We are also looking carefully at whose approach is focusing on the 'whole steam system'.
Scott, thanks for backing up what Glenn said on the VXT 120. Amazing to me that in 10 years with our old oil company and often sticking around when service was done to ask questions etc. That service person never mentioned that adding too much water to the boiler could cause problems. We did let them know how much water we were putting in and about the hissing radiators. Such a simple explanation that they didn't offer.
Scott, you agree with Leo, that the stainless steel tank as an indirect water tank without the tankless coil water heater as part of the boiler, is a good choice? I wonder if it is worth it to spend an extra $1200. for it though. Any thoughts?
Thanks again everyone for your help :-)0 -
Automatic feeders - Nyet!
Here's what I tell all my steam customers:
If you are over 70, or have bad legs or any physical limitations on getting up and down the stairs that lead to the boiler - have an automatic feeder installed on your steam system.
If however you are fine. Forget the auto-feeder and allow the hands-on experience of "knowing" what's going on in the boiler to "speak to you."
If the system has a problem; e.g., bad main vent that hisses out some live steam instead of just air; a radiater vent is shot and allows steam to excape instead of the normal just air; if a pipe leak weeps enough to lose a pint of water a day - but evaporates off the hot pipe before puddling on the floor; if an internal hairline crack exists above (or below) the water-line, inside the boiler or under the pipe insulation: You'll never know it - with an automatic feeder. Water loss from a steam boiler for any reason is unacceptable - and the leading cause for premature boiler failure.
By installing an automatic feeder, even one with a meter, the leak(s) will be masked! And your prompt, necessary, immediate attention will be delayed - or worse yet, ignored!
Here's what we found to be a good rule of thumb: In mild weather (fall & spring), a steam boiler should not need water feeding more than once a month! In winter, a good tight steam system should not need feedwater more than once every two weeks!
Without getting into the water level in the sight glass when full, or near empty nuances, the above two week and one month intervals are a base level of understanding a "tight system" (which is essential) vs. a "loose system" (which is the death knell for steam boilers).
Loose systems have vents that leak, main vents that are suspect, valve packing that is blown and the results are insidious as hell.
What happens is this: The steam or water vapor that escapes through these leak points is pure H2O (distilled water). Left behind are all the minerals and chemicals (like floride, chlorine and rust and any impurities your water contains like calcium carbonate, manganese, etc.) which are corrosive and/or scale formations when concentrated - as they always will be, when you feed more water - and the only thing that leaks out is the pure H2O.
Over time, the chemicals and solids left in the boiler form a scale and heavy rust that will coat (and render useless) the low water cutoff, plug the pressuretrol siphon tube, and create huge thermal stress on the boilers interior - thst will cause a crack or leak, or accelerate corrosion to a point that destroys the boiler.
You getting this? Your oil company will not address this aspect of boiler life, nor will they do anything about that side of the system. Their focus is purely on the oil burner and what it needs to burn their fuel. They NEVER check the vents (radiator or main).
Therein lies the problem!0 -
Now Now Ken
Now Ken,
Although I agree with 90% of your post I work for an oil company and check vents. I also ask questions of the owner about the system. If Adam's comments were to me I would have investigated. But then again I'm at this site on a regular basis I guess that says something about me. Even when explaining to customers the need to Blow Down a low water cutoff often they try to explain it away. Today's high tech, instant gratification world has people spoiled. In Adam's case he said he has been blowing down the LWCO. I find these still fail at times and I find them at the annual service.
Looking forward to the next get together.
Leo0 -
Applaud
I'm with you Leo!! I also work for an oil company and during an annual inspection I question (if home) the homeowner about any issues. I generally do a walk through of the home checking for any sign's of leaks or any other problems. I feel it's my job to check the entire system not just the burner....
P.S. Adam, Dan has a book for steam heat for the homeowner, I would strongly suggest you purchase it. It makes for great reading!!
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-1090 -
Re the PH of the system, I was adding some Stwart Warner's 8 way boiler treatment every season and my heating tech (who I'm convinced doesn't know much about steam) said it was a very bad idea. He also groused that it "ate up" the copper on the LWCO which he had to replace under a service contract.
Is this a bad idea? I thought mainly it buffered acid PH direction. seemed to stop the banging of the system in the early Fall and Spring when the system started when the pipes were cold.0 -
Adam,
The indirect water heater allows the boiler to cool to (theoretically) room temperature when there is no call for heat or hot water. With a coil in the boiler, the boiler must mantain around 150* water all the time. The hotter the boiler is, the more heat goes up the chimney during the off cycle. Over the life of the equipment, the indirect will pay for itself.
Ken,
I agree that manual feeding of the boiler is best IF the homeowner has been informed of what to look for, and cares enough to keep track of it. What I run into many times, are people who I have explained the system to, explained the importance of flushing the LWCO, and explained the effects of needing too much make up water, who when asked how often they need to add water reply whenever the burner doesn't start. How often is that? Reply once in a while! The older customers seem to understand steam heat much better, and know if the boiler is using too much water.
I think people today are just too busy to care. They want a hands off heating system. In cases like this, I would rather have a meter on the feeder that at least gets checked by us at the annual service, then a manual feed with no idea of how much water has passed through the boiler.
BTW, we are an oil company, but we do ask about problems and correct system problems as well as just what burns the oil!
Scott0 -
Hi Scott and all..
Thanks for the additional comments. I'm not really following all of the comments on the advisability of the auto feed. I really didn't feel so good about the comments that people are spoiled and don't want to be bothered. Generalizations really don't help a conversation. In our particular situation, we came from hot water systems that didn't require anything from us and it was an effort to change that mind set, but we did change it and have been pretty responsible about our system. At the same time, we have a disabled person in the family and many pressures and little time to keep up with every responsibility we have, so we are far from spoiled. So, again, when you throw a general statement at someone, most of the time it is not going to fit that person's situation and not be appreciated.
So, yes, we would really look forward to having an auto feed on the boiler and think that might work better for us, and give us one less thing to think about.
Scott, as for the indirect water system, I am confused about this and want to ask more questions about it, so I am going to try to make another post directed to that. Thanks for the help on everything and yes I am going to order the book, I just hope it can get here soon enough. I wish it were available at a book store or library and I would have run out and got it the minute someone mentioned it to me.
Thanks0 -
VXT-120
Lot's being said about the VXT-120 here. Don't forget that in addition to measuring the amount of water your boiler looses, the VXT-120 is also programable and can fill the boiler boiler to the proper water level. Keeping the boiler full all the time does a lot of good. It keeps the block temps down, it cuts down on cycling, and makes more DHW. No matter what the brand boiler you choose, all manufacturers want a stable waterline. The VXT-120 will (when properly adjusted)maintain the proper water line in the boiler whenever the LWCO call for more water.
Instead of filling the boiler just enough to satisfy the LWCO (leaving only an inch or two of water over the crown of the boiler) the VXT will bring the waterline all the way up to the NWL. So I disagree with the opinion that the VXT is only for people too old to fill a boiler. I think it the VXT is best suited for people who don't want to beat the crap out of a new steam boiler.
My $.020 -
Adam
All of the advice you have received here is good advice regarding being aware of your system water addition. As stated, if you do have a VXT feeder installed, still go down and check the readout to ensure that you do not exceed the recommended water usage. We actually go as far as to publish the maximum allowable gallons of water addition per month for our various size boilers in the Installation Manual. I have attached an image of that in this post.
Our boilers can also be configured with a float style LWCO such as the #67 but I don't know what anyone would want to do that. The LWCO we use on our V8 steam boilers has a feature called foam check incorporated into it. When your boiler is running for a call for heat, this control will shut down the burner after ten minutes of running time for approimately 90 seconds to allow any foaming that may occur in the boiler from possible dirty or contaminated water to settle down so that the Probe LWCO can recheck to be absolutely sure that it is sensing actual water and not wet foam. This is an extra safeguard above and beyond the normal operation of the LWCO that ensures that you will not operate the burner with insufficient water levels. Hope this helps.
Glenn Stanton
Manager of Training
Burnham Hydronics
U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.0 -
67 Low Water Cut Off
Adam,
My suggestion to use a #67 Low Water Cut Off was not to be used in conjunction with a VXT Feeder...I stated but not clearly if you are able to make it up and down the stairs the best advise is to have a boiler with a Low Water Cut Off that allows you to open it and draiin some water to make sure the float is working and that way you know things are working correctly...If you install a Hydrolevel Probe or Hydrolevel Foam type Low Water Cut Off then you take it on faith that the water quality in you delivery ststem is good, but it can gunk up the probe and the low water cut off can fail...To be honest the # 67 Float low water cut off can also fail but if you are good about going down and maintaining the new boiler n your basement then in my humble option is that the # 67 Low Water Cut Off is the way to go...This way you see what is happening to one of the largest investments you make other than a house, car etc...
P.S. Weil-McLain also offers their Gold Oil Boilers with Float and Probe type Low Water Cut Offs...
www.weil-mclain.com Check it out....
Good Luck with your choice...0 -
If your old steam boiler failed due to a bad low water cuttof your home owners insurance should cover the cost of replacing the boiler minus the cost of a new low water cuttoff. Often times they try to baulk at the idea but if you push it they usually pay. I must do ten a year that insurance companies pay because of faulty MM67 cuttoffs. If you never drained it or had it serviced they probably will baulk more but will still more than likely pay for a new boiler.0
This discussion has been closed.
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