Work not inspected or permitted.

Paul Fredricks_3

A good question. As the last person/company working on the unit you will be liable for future problems. In a perfect world it would all go back on the original installer. In todays world anyone who touches a system can be sued.

What you need to do is cover your but. Explain to the customer that the unit does not meet code, that it needs to be brought up to code and inspected, and that you can get the system running, but all that needs to be taken care of. Then write all that down and have them sign it to authorize any work you do. Then have them sign it to show that you did the work.

Bottom line, inspection or not. Up to code or not. You work on it, you can be liable for almost anything.

If a customer has a unit installed, not inspected, and the contractor disappears, does that mean that no one else can ever touch the system again? In my mind, give em heat and document everything.

jrc2905

I have started doing work in Mass. for a company that sells service contracts for HVAC. As of late I have been getting repair jobs on Gas Systems that have never been inspected and in all likely hood were installed by an unlicensed company. I am getting to the point where I am going to tell the customers, no inspection no repair work. Am I over reacting or should I be concerned about doing repair work on systems that were not approved by the inspector.

johnnyge

I am a homeowner. I think you are overreacting. If the job was done for an unlicense contractor and there is something wrong with the system I, as a homeowner, will be happy to pay you for the repair work as long my system is working properly and safety, also that after that point it will pass any type of homeinspection.
In my case the boiler work was done alreaady and I am trying to find answers to get it working properly because i think wasnt done by a licence contractor due to the quality of the final product.

jrc2905

Oh so now in addition to the repair you want me to vouch for the safety of the system and someone else' work and insurance liability after they have taken the money and disappeared.

johnnyge

Probably i am missing something. You are saying that you don't want to repair somebodys else crapy job. If that is the case What kind of service

johnnyge

Probably i am missing something. You are saying that you don't want to repair somebodys else crapy job. If that is the case What kind of service are you trying to sell. If I was in your shoes I will sell the service contract but i will tell the homeowner that the system needs to meet code standards, explained to them what is wrong, do the job, get paid. And after that is going to be easy money going to your account everymonth on the service contratc because you already fixed the mistakes and it will be regular maintenance. That's how I see it

jrc2905

It is not about just making money, it is complying with the State regulations that govern the industry. The inspectors are there to make sure the systems are up to the safety codes. Every month the State Board puts out a list of people who have had their licenses suspended or taken away for not pulling permits when installing systems. Why should I put my license on the line for these people?

Mark Hunt

Question hvacr


I am not located in Mass so I do not know. What liability could be passed on to you for servicing an uninspected system?

Are there penelaties for knowingly working on a system that has not been inspected?

I see where you are coming from and if it was me I would walk away from that other company. If they won't play by the rules when it comes to paying customers, they will surely have no problem cheating a sub that they have to pay.

Mark H



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Weezbo

Your work is important. you are charged with a duty.

it is more than make the thing go collect a check bye bye. on the same note you care about what you do and you realise that safety is paramount in what you are called to do. what someone else has done or did not do or what code guided the installation at the time is somewhat irrelevant.

"well , We go by the 1974 XZZ...in This municipality!"

'SO What!' is where i am coming from..'what is the current information that i have in regards to this equipment or installation?'

...you are there and as you keep up your licenses you are aware of what is what joe homeowner basically trust that you will do your level best at your work...and if that means that the work is of such a nature as to require a permit that is something that you have the right to bring to their attention.

sticking your neck out further and further on the chopping block is not something i feel comfortable suggesting that you do. i wont lie to you yours is not an unfounded or uncommon concern. Timmie might have some real straightworward thoughts for you...i do not have a microscope on my own life focused sharp enough to spell out exactly which way for you to roll .i am inclined to say you have to change things for the better ,where you are at, or strike out on your own.

Mike Miller

No Lic-no permit

I run into work all the time that obiously was not permitted or inspect. I never know if it was some bozo in a pick up truck with a torch and a Home Depot credit card or a previous homowner who had an engineering degree for the university of Calcutta. But I have been called by my customer who has a concern. It is more than I can do to walk away. I cannot let my frustration with the unlicensed guy who is selling himself as a plumber/hvac guy or homeowner who had no idea what they were doing get in the way of helping a person who needs it and has gone to the trouble of calling a professional with the expectation of paying a professional price. My son is in medical school and one of the first things he is taught is to not walk away form some one in need. We have the same obligation!!! What we do is critcal to the health and safety of our community. We get more than permission with our state or local license to do our work. We also accept an obligation to our community. If we know what we are doing then liability is a moot point. We cannot prevent trouble coming our way, but we can handle it like men, craftsmen!

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JoeV

That doesn't sound right

I have a different perspective from a different industry that requires me to have an airframe and powerplant license from the FAA and radiotelephone repair license from the FCC.

We are responsible for the work we do and only the work we do until the part (work) is changed again, repaired or inspected by somebody else or until the parts reach their life limit.

As far as inspections go, we are only liable up until the ink dries in the logbook because we can't guarantee the aircraft owner won't change something or hire a shade tree mechanic after we leave.

It doesn't seem right to think your ticket is on the line if you replace a vaporstat and the place blows up because of a gas leak two months later. That is too much of a burden and you can unnecessarily lose business by refusing to do repair work.

Gene_3

U touch it, U own it

We are supposed to be trained licensed professionals, we are supposed to be able to tell at a glance if something is installed wrong or dangerous.

Not long ago a tech got called out to an apt building in Vermont near a college campus.

It was a condensing boiler that was plugged because the owner did not want maintenance done, just service, the company had agreed to this arrangement. {dumb}

He replaced everything but did not clean it and at 2am he left disgusted but they had heat.

In the morning one person was dead, and all others sick from CO, cops and fd were going down as they entered because the co was over 1,000ppm.

The buildings were 5 years old, upon investigation they found the following

The units were installed wrong

the wrong plastic pipe was used for vent pipe

the building inspector claimed he only did a "cursory" inspection so he was not responsible ??

the owner did not want annual maintenance

the hvacr company agreed to that

the tech that night did everything but pull the unit apart and clean it which was what it needed

all the other buildings in the complex were in the same condition

The State of Vermont decided not to prosecute because there were too many players and too confusing for a jury {I think more because of the "cursory" inspection}

The families are pursuing a civil case.

epilogue

If something is wrong it needs to be adressed, if it is not safe red tag it, call your boss, and call the local building inspector, fire marshall or both

C. Y. A.

Tim_33

Not approved or incorrect

The question is: are the systems, in your professional opinion and based on your experience, etc., etc., correct and safe, regardless of whether or not some clerk at the building department has put his or her sticker on it? It matters not whether the installer had a license or a union card or any other card, is the job safe or is it unsafe. IF you are capable of making that determination, do your job, note problems that must be corrected, disable unsafe installations and notify the building owner and the manager of the company for which you are doing this work. If you are not able to determine whether or not the installation is done correctly and is is safe, regardless of inspections previously done, then you have no business touching them.

JoeV

yeah but

what was the technician's liability in all this so far? Does he still have his license?

You can gain a lot of protection if you write up what you did properly. It helps establish innocence, negligence or gross negligence. If he witnessed a CO leak and didn't call the fire department-that's negligence. If he created the leak, knew about it and didn't do anything-that's gross negligence. If he didn't look, didn't see it, didn't create it because he was there for another problem, there is no negligence at all on his part.

I'm sure his paperwork stated the purpose of his visit and the work performed. It would have helped if he noted in writing that the landlord refused extra necessary work that could have possibly found the leak and prevented the death.

The case may go to trial and he may be dragged in but he's not guilty. My guess is the civil trial will be against the landlord, the installer, and the city because the death was preventable. The tech would be a good witness for the plaintiff.

I've been around and have never seen a "you touch it you own it" law.

JoeV

the State Board puts out a list of people who have had their ****licenses suspended or taken away for not pulling permits **** when installing systems. Why should I put my license on the line for these people?"

You answered your question.

Paul Fredricks_3

A few years ago a previous company I worked for had a small college as a customer. When we took over the account we found problems with the original installation of the gas boilers. We told the head of maintenance of the problems and came up with a solution. They did nothing. I sent them a letter stating the problems, solutions, and that if they did nothing there was a real possibility of injury or death. They still did nothing.

Sure enough, one year later 2 kids went to the hospital with CO poisoning. We were sued, as were the original installer, engineer, a previous service company, the equipment manufacturer and the distributor. Because I documented the problems we were able to walk away unscathed.

The problems have since been repaired.

Geo_18

un-licensed in mass

hvacr,How do you know these boilers were not inspected?

JoeV

Documentatation is

...everything! You did exactly what you're supposed to.

However, you guys should have more to work with. You should have some regulatory body to report the problem to and have them bless the boilers or shut them down within 24 hours.

If landlords' have tennents, the landlords should be obligated by law to prove they are maintaining their heating systems with regular service.

If a heating contractor calls in too many false alarms, his reputation suffers or his license suspended because it would be clear he doesn't know what he's doing. If he is right each time, he shines.

Gene_3

The tech was wrong

the condensing boiler was plugged, he replaced tons of parts and left it in an unsafe condition.

Just because the landlord said he did not want annual maintenance does not mean if you go on a service call and that's what it needs you don't do it.

A co worker and I where at a church, we were called to replace the gaskets between the sections of a leaking CI boiler.

Our company had never done work there before.

As we started to pull it apart I was looking at how the burner was wired to the aquastat, gas unit, no safety, never had one for 15 years just wired to the burner from B-1 since the church was built.

We called in the paster and told him what we found and that god was certainly watching over his flock, and we would not run it until this was remedied. period

if something happens the company you work for can be sued amnd so can you, personally.

jrc2905

I know they are not inspected, because there is no inspection sticker on them, and the shoddy work would not be approved. I also know some of the companies doing some of the installs and I know their operation and
qualifications.

jrc2905

From what I am seeing out there I would say 75% of all installs are done without permits. This bothers me because I am competing with these people whose prices do not include permits fees and the use of plumbers. The State could stop this overnight, buy requiring that the supply houses who sell gas and oil appliances send a copy of the sale slip to the town where the appliance is being sent and then the building departments could cross check to make sure the permits are in place.

Geo_19

Stickers

I'm on your side hvacr but have never seen or been issued a "sticker" from an inspector for a boiler and I've worked eastern mass for many years.

frank_25

C'mon guys

[in my shop ], we are service personel, no? We charge for our services, no? Work means money,no? When we acquire new customers that request service contracts, we thoroughly inspect the equipment, quote for repairs, and if we do 'em we sell the service contract. So, if ya see something that you know is wrong, and cust. says no, note it on your ticket and get a signature, and walk away. We have disabled boilers when the LWCO wasn't working and we were told "No fixee" A serevice note is entered with the info, and the cust is "tagged" We have refused to deliver oil to them in a few situations. A few hundred gal. customer loss is no biggie compaired to a chance of a lawsuit. We gotta do the right thing, ya know what I mean? bwdik?ijap

Unknown

just because

Just because we have liencse doesn't mean the inspectors are any better than us... However, if we got "married" to the jobs screwed up by others, we have a record? U bets! Have a record of incompleted(sp) inspectors? They won't let u know... Had a job with two water heaters tied common smoke pipe, fighting for make up air in airtight room (new building) reported to the head county inspector, what happens? NOTHING for 3 years. Screwed the window open til it fixed...

Mitch_6

Permitted or not

Tim had the best answer I have been a licensed plumber for over twenty years in Massachusetts. On some occasions there are tags left by inspectors but usually not. I have no way of knowing if a plumbing / gas / electrical or oil inspections has been done.

All I know is does it appear to be safe, ALL equipment i touch I test draft and make a good visual inspection, steam boilers get the pig tail cleaned and low water cut off tested. Unfortunately some H.O. do not let me do a co test since I have them sign a waiver before doing it stating that if I find high co and cannot correct it the unit is getting shut down,

(in mass co testing is not required on service calls so it is hard to press the issue if the H.O. don't want it I would rather do the best basic safety check than leave a unit untouched, if visually I see something I do not like I may press the issue further or have the gas company come by if they are the last one there and are an authority having jurisdiction it belongs to them)

In short on a service call you have no way of knowing if the unit was inspected or if anyone modified it since inspection in most cases you do not need a permit, license or inspection for repairs on the equipment itself just installations. Gas piping, water supply and electrical feeding the equipment must be done by licensed people and must be inspected.

Mitch S.

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Mitch_6

New mass code forgot this one

In the code when pulling a permit the plumber must inspect all parts of the mechanical in the area and is responsible that it be in code.

Interprete that one.

Mitch S.

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Unknown

What about the National Fuel Gas Code?

The definitions in the beginning under "Qualified Agency" show that gas technicians that service equipment are bound by this code.

Listed in this code, in the appendices, is the ONLY safety inspection acceptable to this code, and it MUST be performed BEFORE service is preformed, EVERY TIME. Not doing the safety inspection but still preforming service work absolutely makes YOU responsible for the unsafe condition that might pre-exist.

Have your attorney explain "Duty of Care" to you.

Noel

Jerry_15

Ohferevenssakehere - A permit is required to put in a sink washer. Where do you draw the line? Do I show up on Friday afternoon and tell them the whole thing is a train wreck, badmouth the last contractor, tell them I can't do any work until pulling a permit on Monday, and leave 50 units without hot water. I'd rather fix it, note that there are other possible existing problems, and bid em. Don't scare the horses. It's all exposed, and can be inspected later. Snap out of it.

KAG

forheavanssakes

Hot water heater repair or replacement has a graze period in MA (State employees do not work weekend.

Look at most safety requirement and follow the paper trail ie lawsuit. I can't have an open flame on a hot water heater (gas only, (vapers)), but that standing pilot on the heating system (below 18" is O.K.). How about CO detectors required if vent piping is below 7' snow line (MA code),again BUT natural draft hot water heater in chimney nothing needed (Racoons love to build nests).

It seems we just sit back and wait for the lawyer's to do our jobs. Which do you think is safer low water cut-off or combo feed/backflow that leaks and gets plugged off. You know come to think of it if we out lawed any type of cap or plug that MAY just work. Then again apperentice plumber are not suposed to be doing service work alone.

Let's try policing ourselves and not wait for the lawyers to do it. Is there any state that has a residential heating lic. other than gas, oil or plumbing. Do they want to see your heat lose before you file permit? I remember in grammer school I had to show my "work" whether or not my answer was right or wrong.

I believe it is time to push for a LIC. in the heating and cooling industry for the complete work. Union, Union, Union, sorry my wife made me watch "Norma Rea" with her, now there is someone who risked it all for the future of HER trade.

Weezbo

Every time you open the door on a service call....

you could be walking into the surprise of your life...

that you may take as Gospel.

Unknown

I didn't say anything about permits,

I responded to the question about fixing equipment without doing a safety inspection.

As I recall, the trade calls this, "You touch it, you own it". It IS based, in fact, on the code.

Noel

mtfallsmikey

What do

everyone's liability insurance carriers who have posted on this subject here say about this issue of who serviced what last, and if the affected equipment was permitted or not? Enquiring minds wanna know!

Gene_3

they want

at least a $1,000,000 policy.

stupid is as stupid does, you want to leave something unsafe? knock yourself out

the fact is your responsible, you're supposed to know safe from unsafe barring stuff you can't see, personally I'd rather CMA than have lawyers and prosecuters squabble over it.

One place I worked we had meetings every friday at the shop, and at one point the boss would ask if anyone had an interesting job that week or found something we all should know about---an impromptu learning seminar

if you have a crew start tipping them off to some things others have seen or corrected so they will see them too

It should increase your profit because they should in turn be selling to make these corrections or replace old unsafe equipment

It is theoretically impossible to perform maintenance for a week on 20-30 units and not find anything wrong, if so you are just changing filters and walking out. that is not performing maintenance.

Jerry_15

Let's get back to the top of the page. It wasn't about fixing dangerous problems. It was about busting anyone who had done work before without getting a permit. Not my style, happy to say. I always do a good code job, but see no need to urinate on the other guy's foot. Life is too short. The thought (and liability), of evaluating, in writing, everyone's work that had come before qualifies as hubris fer sure. Beware the ides of march.