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Unknown

Sounds like another Maio " stick it to them" charges.... Sure we can know the overheads costs and stay in business, but gouging the customers is always bad for the business images... Customer's trust will keep ya busy, not the money...

Christine Young

Contractors overcharging

News
They cried Wolfe in an emergency
And they wish they hadn't

As consumers, we're most vulnerable when we're desperate. After all, who has time to shop around when the toilet overflows or the furnace conks out?

Exploiting such desperation is called price gouging. From what I hear, Wolfe Plumbing, Heating and Air Conditioning, based in Montgomery, is doing just that.

For the record, this is not the 62-year-old C.R. Wolfe Heating Corp. on East Main Street in Middletown, which does heating and air conditioning, but not plumbing. "If you don't 'see our C.R.,' you must have the wrong Wolfe," quips Cathy Wolfe, whose grandfather, Charles, founded the company.

It was certainly not C.R. Wolfe that Nancy Layne of Newburgh called in December when her furnace failed during a snowstorm. She called Wolfe of Montgomery, which also lists phone numbers in Middletown, Newburgh and Warwick.

"I figured that such a big company would be reputable," Layne told me.

Wolfe sent a technician, who told Layne that repairing her 11-year-old furnace would cost $1,221.

But, wait — he couldn't get the parts for three to five days. How about a brand-new furnace for $3,200? "Didn't sound like much of a choice," Layne told me, "especially in the middle of a snowstorm."

Layne paid the Wolfe repairman a $74.62 service fee and sent him away.

Then she called Classic Plumbing/Heating and Air Conditioning, a small company whose owner checked the furnace and found only a disconnected thermostat wire, which he quickly reattached. Layne paid him $81.09 and she hasn't had a problem since.

"I was lucky," she told me. "But I wonder how many people go ahead with a $3,200 expense because they have no way of knowing if it is the truth."

In January, I heard a similar tale from Sylvia Panetta, who called Wolfe of Montgomery in December for an estimate to change a kitchen faucet and replace two shut-off valves in her Middletown home. She was told they don't give estimates over the phone, but for $69 plus tax, a technician would come out and take a look.

"I was desperate," Panetta recalled. "It was Friday. I have animals and they must have water. I have medical problems and take medication."

A Wolfe technician came to Panetta's home, peered under the sink and told Panetta the job would cost $1,100.

"Once I got over the shock that he was serious, I told him the amount was absurd," Panetta recalled. She paid for the service call and called another plumber, who did it for $125.

I contacted Wolfe with these complaints last winter and received a three-page, single-spaced letter from owner Ed Wolfe, saying he had issued refunds to both Layne and Panetta, adding that "we regard customer satisfaction as our highest priority.

"We "¦ consistently provide real comprehensive 24-hour a day/7 day a week service," Wolfe wrote. "This can lead to our prices being higher than some others in the business."

OK, I thought. Maybe. I contacted the Orange County Department of Consumer Affairs and requested copies of complaints they'd received about Wolfe. They sent me a couple dozen, most of which had the same gripe — price gouging — and demanded refunds of the service fee. Most were marked "resolved," although I have no way of verifying this, since the consumers' names were blacked out.

Then I got more complaints. Diana Leone of Middletown got a $734 estimate from Wolfe to repair her toilet. She said no; another plumber fixed it for $118. Jane Savage of the Town of Newburgh called Wolfe to unclog her basement pipes, got an estimate for $831 and instead hired Roto-Rooter, who did it for $225.

"That's, like, criminal, to be that far out of the ballpark," Savage said.

I agreed and called Ed Wolfe.

"I've gotten too many complaints to ignore this," I told him, citing examples. "Too many complaints that are exactly the same — way-out-of-the-ballpark estimates. Then, when people balk, they get nailed for a hundred bucks anyway."

Wolfe said his fees are "based on a reference book called 'The National Standard Pricing Guide,' which is a widely used in our industry for pricing."

This is not exactly true. The National Standard Pricing Guide is actually a fill-in-the-blank software program enabling small-business owners to create their own price books. The owner fills in the fees, then prints out the books for technicians to bring on jobs.

Wolfe insists his pricing "is as fair as we can be." In my book, it isn't fair at all.

Christine Young writes a watchdog column for the Times Herald-Record. Send her the details of your problem at the Record's Web site, www.recordonline.com, or write to her at the Times Herald-Record, 40 Mulberry St., Middletown 10940.

[Deleted User]

The only thing I question is the part about the thermostat wire being disconnected. If a furnace has a crack in the heat exchanger, some guys disconnect the wire so the customer doesn't fire the unit unsafely. Just a thought. As for the other stuff, I'm not a plumber so I don't know anything that.

Tony_23

First

It sounds pretty shady to me, I've seen those tactics employed before. It's usually a sign of a co. who won't be around long.

Why don't you list the state you're in ? That makes me suspicious of YOU.

If a customer was told $XX to LOOK at a problem, and that's what they were charged, how is that overcharging ?
If a quote is given, and the customer says no, how is that overcharging ? If they were actually hired to do the work, and the going local price is $XY and they charged $XXXY, THAT'S overcharging. If the price goes up because it's -20 instead of +20, that's gouging.

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singh

Funny

I was just talking to another contractor today about my business partner ; )
Wolfe of Catskill (the same co.)

Price is not discussed here, but this makes the industry look bad.
He can be there in an hour though 24/7, that has to have some value.

AG Elliot Spitzer is watching also.

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Supply House Rick

Tony

Middletown is in New York. I read this article in the paper. Wolfe is a very large company in the Hudson Valley and WOW...

What, do you think this doesn't happen?

Rick

Tony_23

Seen it myself, too

Of course it happens. Big co's, small co's, it doesn't matter.

If you read my post, you'll see that I'm looking at both sides. But scare tactics don't fly with me, there's no good excuse for it.

All those town names are duplicated in other states, I'm sure. Thanks for filling me in.

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David Sutton_6

Safty shut down

If he's a pro and Proves that the unit in fact has a crack, he would shut down the power, disconnect the firematic, shut off the fuel . and notifie the owner, not just remove the thermostst wire....David

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swanmech_2

Customers seeing the high's and low's

> If he's a pro and Proves that the unit in fact

> has a crack, he would shut down the power,

> disconnect the firematic, shut off the fuel . and

> notifie the owner, not just remove the thermostst

> wire....David

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 386&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

swanmech_2

Customers seeing the high's and low's

What about those other contractors prices! $81.09 for a heating service call, $118 for plumbing service call. So the Customers think the low price is the right price! Both type of contractors are hurting us in the public eye.
Jon

don_5

Who knows

what the guys cost of doing business is? So do we set our prices on what other charge?

Personally...I think the guy know is cost to be in the biz and he charging what he needs to charge to stay in business.

Just because the other guys can charge a too low of a price
does not make it right for him,again we dont know is goals or plans for his business.

Its funny people go to the doctor all the time and spend 10 time what we charge but,as soon as we lowly hvac guys charge what we need to charge to run a shop and provide for
our familys its called price grouging.

And let me remind those that doctor no longer makes house calls.

Once again a post from someone who has no clue.

mark_56

I know of the company in question. Yes they are agressive in their pricing, but that is their right. They recently moved into this area (north of Middletown), they advertise heavily and promise the moon.
I used to work for a similar company that is expensive but not quite as expensive. They provide 24hour service, their customers get what they want when they want it, they have a full warehouse with parts runners during regular business hours, they guarantee their work for two years, the employees are expected to wear shoe cover, use drop cloths, and work professionially. To many customers this is all worth them being about twice the average rate for this area.
You do what you can to get and keep a customer "on the hook". These companies use advertising, name recognition, quick response time, service call and diagnostic fees etc...The customer may "buy" the diagnosis from them without going any further. But providing these fees are discussed up front there is no reason they should be reimbursed unless it can be shown that the diagnosis was way off.
The real problem arises when the company provides profit incentives for the technician, and the technician persues this in an agressive and dishonest way. This practice rewards the technician for being a liar and a thief.

We don't expect to pay the same price for a Hyundai as we do for a BMW. Even though they are both essentially cars. People pay more for the BMW because of real and "percieved" benefits. So be it with plumbers.

ScottMP

I think that was

well said Mark. No one is putting a gun to the customers head here. It also sounds like the people in these "Examples" chose not to use the service's of the business.

Not defending anyone here but I find it odd that Christine chose to post this here and walk away ? No responce from her to the questions. Her post seems out of place with no other comments. More like a shot gun blast statement. Duck and Cover , here comes the Consumer Advocate.

Christine, do you have a business experience ? Do you understand a profit and loss statement or balance sheet ? Have you personnaly ever runa business ?

Starbucks Coffee is more expensive than other shops and Yet, people purchase thier product. Why ?

Scott

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jackchips_2

I know

the answer, Scott.

They like the coffee at exhorbitant prices and have decided it's worth paying. They even know the price upfront as it is listed right up there on the board.

Oh, sorry. You meant rhetorically. Do I get credit anyway?

Jack

Dave DeFord_4

It's a little different...

When you go to a service department in a car dealer they rarely try and sell you a new car - because the incentive is for the service manager to try and service your existing car. This happens because that is where the incentive lies for the service manager. On the other hand, if you walk into the showroom of a new car dealer they are not going to tell you to get your old car fixed because their incentives lie in trying to sell you a new car. The point I am trying to make is that most people have already made up their mind what they need when they walk into a car dealer. This is not the case when a service tech is in your home. Typically you are at their mercy when it comes to evaluating the existing equipment and whether it is repaired or replaced. There are perverse incentives that come into play when the service tech is compensated for selling new equipment. The service tech is rewarded not for fixing what is wrong but selling new equipment. This leads certain people to take a bad path. This could be solved by management rewarding service techs for servicing what is wrong and rewarding sales people for selling new equipment. I know there is a certain temptation to make things efficient by making both calls at the time but I believe it many times results in the type of bad publicity and the resulting reputation damage reported above. Not that such a system can never work but it seems to be prone to abuse unless managed very closely by someone that is not rewarded financially when it is abused - usually the owner or a non-comissioned manager.

A.J.

Other side of the coin

I just worked up a price and got the job for installing some radiant tubing in a new houses basement and garage. Owner got the tubing at the local hardware store but I figured I would still help him out because I could tell he was in over his head. Not making anything but I could use some good karma.
I found out yesterday that the way we got the job was after he called around and asked if anybody could knock off roughly 30%, they would get the job.
I found out today that he is going to get one of my X employes to do the boiler and system install becuase of his cheap price , working on the week end and all moon lighting and all. Did I remember to tell you that I let this guy go becuase he was stilling of me to supply his moonlighting jobs.

Maine Ken

So much for Karma!

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ScottMP

You do get Credit Jack

Because that is what I was talking about. They see value in what they recieve from Starbucks. They get the menu, they get the little coffee cozy and they pay for it.

Dunkin Doughnuts is less money.

I think you can charge what ever you want. As far as I know, no company ( in our business ) is subsidised to stay in business. If these guys are charging to much they won't be around long. If they convince thier customers that they are worth every penny then they'll be around a long time.

Unlike Christine who seems to have skipped town.

Scott




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mtfallsmikey

Doesn't anyone remember

How Tom Warner got stung by CBS some years ago? Dang near put him out of business.

Tony_23

No good deed goes unpunished

I had an employee like that 4-5 yrs ago. I fired him, he starts up his own "business". I straighten out his messes and now get paid for it. He was telling people I taught him everything he knew. Thing is, I didn't teach him everything I knew

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singh

value of value

The biz owner determines his or her cost of doing business, true.
The consumer determines value ,true.

But it is double edge from both parties involved.
When does cost of doing business become too high, if I want a new truck, boat , motorcycle, I have three of four kids I want to put in college, etc. That's not cost of doing business. A fine line between I want and I need.

How can a consumer properly value a service , when so many products are tilted in odd numbers.

Example, I had minor surgery from doctor, he charged me around $650 for the procedure, plus included two check up visits after. I thought it would be more to get cut.
Yet, a plumbing company charges a elderly couple $650 to change a frost free wall hydrant, that cost $25 in parts and labor involved was only 15 minutes, being that a shut off valve was on the other side.
And believe me , I charged far less, and made a very handsome profit.
Sad, there are others that will charge even lower than me fo the same job.
How is the consumer to value??
All I know is that the company who quoted $650, because some 19 y.o "tech"
read that number in a book, is just a little bit off. And that is how you make front page news.

Use common sense, use common cents.



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Andy_18

Over charging

I personally don't think (as others have stated)that when a person knows what the charge is before they buy is price gouging. My employees need an incentive to go out on a service call after working 10 to 12 hour day and it is not a business owners responsibility to eat the cost of over time or not be reinbursed for the cost of stocking parts. As far as leaving a customer with out heat, that is absurd. There are dozens of ways to provide temp heat for people that are safe. And they are not stuck in a make a decision on the spot!

heatboy

Preditory Homeowners.

Just once, I wish I would see a story about these people. They lay in wait for us. Not newsworthy, I guess. I'll bet the ratio is 10 to 1 for bad customers to bad contractors. We've all seen them.

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ScottMP

right on Jeff

right on !!


Scott

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Rich W

Amen hb

I think I'll start selling franchises to a new "Guaranteed Lowest Price In Town Heating" business. I promise that you'll get the same treatment that your doctor gives you. Just bring your furnace to my office at the pre-arranged time, say 10am. However, never after 5pm. I promise to actually look at the furnace no later than 11am- for your 10am app. I'll look at the furnace for 5 minutes then send you to my colleague across town for his opinion- next week. Oh yes, here is a prescription for some electric heaters to tide you over until next week. You can pick those up on the way home. Also, don't worry about the bill. Just give me your co-pay of $75 and I'll bill your insurance co. for the other $300. Remember, you only spent an actual 5 minutes with the doctor. I don't know all of his costs; I assume he needs this much to keep the doors open. What would it cost if he had to drive an hour in the snow, in the dark to find your house? What would it cost if he had to bring his equipment into your basement? Your basement with little or no lighting? Your basement with the broken stair that you forgot to tell him about? Your basement with the over flowing kitty litter box in front of the furnace? Your furnace that hasn't been serviced in 7 years-with a year old air filter stuck inside? What would it cost if you kept him there for an hour and ten minutes to make sure you got your hours worth? What if he charged you an hour and 15 minutes for that hour and 10? What if you said," that's too much-get out, I'm not paying you anything"? How much should he charge for the next job to make up for this lost time? And the next....

Telling a lie to sell equipment is wrong! Period. Telling me I can only charge X for my work is just as wrong. I would love to follow these people around at their job with a stop watch and pay them what I think THEY are worth. Maybe I could afford to buy a few more things if prices were lower.

Sorry, this always hits a nerve.

Mike Miller

gouging ?

This is a touchy issue, and i think most of us are trying to find a balance between making sure that we make money( I ain't doing this for fun or practice) and making sure our customers are getting a fair deal. Value is an intangible, and there will be customers for whom a free job would be too expensive. I run a small union shop. That means I pay my guys by the book, no piecework, no sales commisions. They get medical insurance , pension and a fair paycheck. That makes me less expensive than some of the big service shops around here, and more expensive than the guy in his pick up truck with a torch and a hoe hawg. That being said, it is not price gouging if the price paid is the one agreed to before the job is begun. No matter what that price is in comparison to someone else's price. I have had my priced slashed in half by other people, some of whom are really running a business, the same as I am. It used to really burn me, but I have gotten to the point where I know I have done the work to know what it costs me to be in business and what it is that I want to make, again I ain't doing this for fun or practice! I will make a good profit on the work I do and my price reflects that. I am not the only game in town, so the customer always has othe options. But I do feel that I bring some things to the table that my compeditors don't and that is what I sell my work on. Lets remember something here, making a profit is the point of a business, we are not stealing when we earn one. Money is just that, money, it is not your life and should not be a god. I pay more than I have to for many things in this business because I like the relationship or the service or what ever. Just my Humble opinion ;-) Mike

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Mad Dog_2

Just in case some of you have forgotton.......................

This IS The United States of America and we live and operate in a market economy NOT a command economy. Businesses are entitled to charge whatever they want AND it is incumbent upon the CONSUMER to make that buying decision. If you "need" service after hours SO bad that you can't wait till morning, pay the bill and get over it. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog_2

With you..............................................

Mad Dog

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