questioning the AHJ

Unknown

What's AHJ? Air Handler Junks?

Rob_32

questioning the AHJ

I think we've got a couple things that aren't to code on a boiler install. This is in MA. Combustion air supply deficient by 50%, drip stub (that the right term?) on gas piping missing (where it should be goes directly to the boiler). Local AHJ seems to think everything's fine. What's my recourse to resolve this apparent difference of opinion?

Thanks for any insight.

Rob_32

Authority Having Jurisdiction. In this case, plumbing inspector.

frank_25

in NYC

The local not-to-friendly inspectors are reading the book, and all other "Procedure and Policy Notices" and quoting them on the jobs. Maybe your guy knows something that you don't. E.G. In a single family "normal" residence that has normal air infiltration, ducted make up air is not and hasn't been a requirement for fuel burning equipment less than 350,000 BTU. The use of drips in the gas piping is strictly forbidded now. "They" call it a future outlet. Years ago, the utilities required it when manufactured gas was used, it being wet an' all. NYC feels that it is no longer required. Now us guys tryin to make a living here are subjected to the whims and dreams of the AHJ. Since the beginning of time [almost], when a Summer time job of replacing a boiler w/domestic hot water coil, we have used a temp. oil fired water heater[s] for DHW. The only thing temp. about it is it was installed for the duration of the job, and gets removed when the boiler goes on line. [I'm talking about apartment house work here.] Now the job is ready for the final and gas inspection and we can't get a sign-off or a gas certificate [which the utility requires prior to installing a gas meter], the city dis-approved the emergency application at first glance. Then we called them, they agreed to reason, and promptly lost the paper-work. [re-file] Most of these guys here haven't been in the field as installers or run a shop. How can they inspect our work, what do they know of our work without having been in our shoes? They won't deviate from the printed words of their bible which does't take ALL things into consideration. The days of interpertation are long gone along with common sense.

Unknown

I see

I see, different words for " higher up offical" make sure that he's certfied to do the heating system testing or checking... Some state plumbing here doesn't know ANYTHING about hot water heating or well water systems, nor care about them, told them to leave the jobs or get someone that know about the systems.. Same person never come back while my jobs passed...

Unknown

Frankie,

I was told the reason these " the high and the almighty inspectors" have these jobs because they can't get or do the real jobs.

clammy

sounds right

Most of the inspectors i have ran into know not much about hot water system and are those who could not make it in the field but there are exception like some older guys who cannot do the work any longer because of phyical limits ,Most i have dealt with look at the boiler say my god and throw a sticker on it most don't even look at or for a lwco only if there's a backflow preventer and prv and safety piped to the floor or 6 inches above it' a sad sitution out there in alot of respects.I have had in the past one inspector ask if i had time because he wanted to run to the store to buy a disposal camera to take pics i asked why he stated that next time he got into a heated discussion with a plumber about how the boiler should be piped anbd supported that when the plumber says no one does it that way that he could pull the pics out and say yes guys do it and here's whatit looks like . peace and good luck clammy

frank_25

previously

and before the computer age, I remember my father calling an inspector in the early morning for a same day appointment. They made their own routes and knew if there would be time in their day to "squeeze in" another job. Your could talk to these guys 'cause they were in the twilight of their life. Worked with the wrenches, ran a shop, and now went into a pre-retirement job. I learned a lot from these guys. In NYC since that black day in May 2002 when 19 NYC plumbing inspectors were arrested, the replacements are impossible to reason with. Sometimes ya have no recourse to do something that is a bit of a stretch, but by no means illegal, immoral or fattening [lol]. Like a mid winter boiler replacement...legally we shouldn't start up a new boiler until it has been approved. But what are we supposed to do? Let our customers freeze and wait a week for the eyes? I ain't bragging, but in my shop there are three licensed plumbers, three licensed oil burner installers, a licensed fire supression contractor and back-flow testers. Now do you guys think a book-learned guy knows more than us? I still feel that if you didn't do it, you shouldn't look at it. bwdik?ijap

Mitch_6

Can you give us more info

Is this a new or existing installation, are you the home owner. If new install was it by a private contractor or a utility.

term is drip or dirt tee, needed more when gas was based on liquid fuel. Now used more to catch dirt in the line but typically all you see is cutting oil sitting in them.

Suppose to be three inches long but a long as you have a cap not a plug in the tee the length is not enforced.

Actually if the gas equipment is outside you cannot have a drip since they are afraid of it filling with condensate, freezing and splitting.

As to the inspectors the majority of them in the area I work are informed and reasonable the only issue I have had is interpretation of the ever changing venting code so on that issue I ask first.

How is the combustion air calculated, is there any outside air what type of equipment is installed.

Note: Combustion air is also under the building code and AHJ can be Building inspector, Fire Department and Utility.

Mitch S.

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Rob_32

Thanks for the comments.

I'm a HO. Formerly uneducated victim of a 2003 Keyspan oil->gas conversion. Never again. Install by private contractor, doing the world a favor by now being out of business.

House is not unusually tight. Boiler is atmospheric cast iron, 164,000 BTU input Burnham Series 2, just over double oversized . Basement is 24x24x7 = volume ~4000 cu ft. The other "half" of the basement is a garage (aka "tuck under" garage is under the half the first floor living space) with a doorway between basement and garage.

Mitch_6

For full disclosure I posted a question

on this site "has keyspan been stealing your installs" I am a little jaded when it comes to them and have several customers with unhappy installs. One I was called in on while they were doing the boiler and I had to do some additional work, I had told the H.O. ahead of time what they needed and keyspan sold the basic package cheep then nailed them with the extras. I even got into an argument one of there installers on the site.

To your tight construction you could try to get air from upstairs be removing a door from the cellar to the next level up or usually we install a fan in a can that draws in air from the outside only while the boiler runs if access is good the installation is fairly simple more electrical than anything else. I would not worry about the drip tee much.

Did you get the contractor from a gas company list, was he assigned the job by them or did you find him elsewhere and you used the discounted boiler program.

Mitch S.

Rob_32

This was the "free" boiler, you pay for the install program, three years ago. Not sure how it works nowadays. Suffice it to say we have steered everyone who we know away from it.

System already has a powervent that is too friggin' noisy. Boiler is right under the living room. Really don't want to do the fan in a can thing -- more noise, etc. Passive high/low air would mean very cold basement. Laundry and work area there.

Thing about it is I've asked at least 5 people their opinion on whether the appliance in this space meets code, and have gotten three different answers. Hence the question, WHO's RIGHT?

Thanks.

[Deleted User]

Rob...

What code is being followed in your jurisdiction? Uniform Mechancial or International Code?

In some cases, the required combustion air can be augmentated by the presence of free air within the space.

The lack of a drip tee doesn't really concern me as mcuh either. In my 1/3 of a century of messing around with these systems, I've NEVER seen any mositure in the drip leg. Just the occasional cutting oil.

I overheard a plumber tell a HO once that the drip leg was there to hold extra gas needed to start the boiler...

I kept my mouth shut. He was bigger than me.

ME

Rob_32

I'll check.

Thanks to the feedback here, I'm past the drip leg. It was just another thing on top of some other issues.

The major concern is combustion air. The people who have said there is a significant issue are taking the volume of the room ~4000 cu ft and dividing by 50 cu ft (per the national fuel gas code) to get a max allowable appliance size for unconfined space of 81000 BTU input. (4032 cu ft -> 50 cu ft per 1000 BTU input => 81,000 BTU max appliance size to be considered an unconfined space.

Will call the AHJ and see what code applies. And/or if someone here in MA can inform, that would be great.

Thanks.

Mitch_6

Im in mass

the 50 cubic feet per 1000 btu of un interupted open space is the code. The rest can be taken from outside air. In some cases an inspector will take into account a loos house as having enough infiltration but I am seeing this less and less. Fan in the can is not that noisy and solves alot of issues.

What town are you in.

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Rob_35

Unfortunately the looseness right now are the doorway and service penetrations between basement and garage. Those are going away, and when they do, this basement will be pretty tight. Falmouth.

Rob_35

What Mitch said. MA code governs, and in this case it matches the national.

Brad White_9

Yes

Mass. Fuel Gas Code CMR 248 is NFPA-54/National Fuel Gas Code almost verbatim. No differences have I found.

To ME's question, it is my understanding that MA is and has been on the brink of converting to IMC/IBC for some time now but have yet to do so.


We already have several chapters "entirely unique to Massachusetts". Like our Congressional delegation, that is a good thing for the rest of the country

[Deleted User]

So...

Based on the IFGG (International Fuel Gas Code) standard, allowing for what you have in unconfined air, then you would need outside augmentation air in the form of 20 square inches (1 square inch per 4,000 btuH input). That would be a round opening of 6" diameter. All of the above assumes that your incoming combustion air communicates directly with the outdoors, and does not communicate through horizontal ducts. If it does come through horizontal ducts, then the combustion air must be 8" in diameter.

Also, the IFGC requires that a room that can communicate directly with the garage be treated as if it were in the garage, which loosely translated means that the lowest source of ignition MUST be at least 18" above the garage floor.

Is your boiler on a stand???

I'll presume that with the external and internal air that you have adequate combustion air available to sustain proper and safe combustion. If the cold air flooding into the room is the issue, put the combustion air drop pipe into a 5 gallon bucket with the drop pipe near the bottom of the bucket. This will effectively give you a "cold air trap" and avoid extremely cold conditions within the mechanical room. It will then only allow air to flow freely into the mech rm when needed.

Make sense?

ME

Rob_32

stunningly clear

Thanks! I particularly like the 5-gal bucket idea.

Boiler on a stand? Of course not. Yet. And THAT is a completely new one.

Hey whatever happened to the backyard deep borehole?