What gripes ya??? (ME)

ScottMP

I remember someone ( maybe Dan ), telling a story about a speaker at a trade orginization talking about a national retailer doing installs and selling equipment. The speaker said it would ruin the trade and the small guy could'nt compete. As I remember correctly, he was speaking about Sears and it was around 1920.

Its the same ol' same ol'. The more things change the more the stay the same. Like the cable guy says " Get Er Done ".

If I looked at the Yellow Pages everyday at how many other companys thier are ... I'd quit. I don't and I just run my business as best as I can. I'm busy.

Hey, do I have no complaints, nope. I hate listening to some customers and thier complaints ... but ... thats the bowl of soup I got, I'll eat it untill its time to finish.

By the way, I had a guy call late Friday afternoon to tell me that my service guy could'nt fix the tub drain on the whirlpool tub in the house he's "renting" which has a 42 x 48 shower and another full bathroom. He said " I wont have the use of that tub this weekend. ...... YUP ...... Some people kids.

Ooops I just complained.

Scott



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[Deleted User]

Ran into a BUNCH of people Thursday...

at the TM Sales annual open house. Seems like everyone I saw wanted to chew on my ear about one thing or 'tuther.

Customer buys boiler on line from major national wholesale (allegedly) outlet, and has gonads to ask him to help unload it when it arrives, and carry it down stairs...while he's there doing his measuring for his estimate/take off.

Another one complaining that every tubing manufacture you've ever seen and a few you ain't, selling PEX on line for cheaper than our local wholesalers are selling it for...

Yet another complaining about his competiton stealing work from him because he has litle to no (alleged) overhead and charges a LOT less than he does (HALF) but doesn't do a heat loss or anthing like that...

Contractors complaining about major tankless heater manufacturers (Paul Harvey's favorite brand) being used as a baseboard heater...

Whats YOUR gripe?? (Take it easy on the DIYers and homeowners, we're ALL DIY'ers and homeowners...)

ME

Bob Sweet

Contractors

Two of the heavy hitters in my area, who between the two of them install a minimum of 600 complete radiant systems a year, refuse to install anything other than 80% CI boilers unless spec'd or asked for by the customer. To me that is a disservice to the customer, and worse than that, to the industry. It's a mismatch of equipment and leaving customers VERY uncomfortable and unhappy.

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J.C.A._3

To quote Peter Griffen...

"You know what grinds my gears"...

September came up on me MUCH too fast. If I could just cut myself in half,I bet I may be able to get to all the work that has come up in the last few weeks.

Follow the bloody trail, I'll be at the end! Chris

Al Letellier_9

> "You know what grinds my gears"...

>

> September

> came up on me MUCH too fast. If I could just cut

> myself in half,I bet I may be able to get to all

> the work that has come up in the last few

> weeks.

>

> Follow the bloody trail, I'll be at the

> end! Chris





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Al Letellier_9

what gripes me......

What gets me is the grippers.......it just doesn't do anyone any good. Maybe I'm geting too old or maybe I've finally figured it out ( I doubt it) Gripping and complaining is such a waste of energy, like fishing with no line on the reel, that I try very hard to pay any attention to it. It's harder to do than say, but just be a pro and get it done. Attitude ( the right one ) will get you a lot farther in life than standing around and complaining about it. True, life sucks at times, but I'd rather spend my energy trying to overcome the negative and get on with the good things in life. I don't always make it or accomplish that objective, but I try. I simply con't worry about the competition anymore. There's both good and bad. I want and strive to be one of the good ones. It makes for happier days, and I have all the work I can handle and refuse more than a take on....O Happy Day !!!

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S Ebels

Thought for the day...........

If the earth didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

hr

Sounds like a whine and cheese get together

> I remember someone ( maybe Dan ), telling a story

> about a speaker at a trade orginization talking

> about a national retailer doing installs and

> selling equipment. The speaker said it would ruin

> the trade and the small guy could'nt compete. As

> I remember correctly, he was speaking about Sears

> and it was around 1920.

>

> Its the same ol' same

> ol'. The more things change the more the stay the

> same. Like the cable guy says " Get Er Done

> ".

>

> If I looked at the Yellow Pages everyday at

> how many other companys thier are ... I'd quit. I

> don't and I just run my business as best as I

> can. I'm busy.

>

> Hey, do I have no complaints,

> nope. I hate listening to some customers and

> thier complaints ... but ... thats the bowl of

> soup I got, I'll eat it untill its time to

> finish.

>

> By the way, I had a guy call late

> Friday afternoon to tell me that my service guy

> could'nt fix the tub drain on the whirlpool tub

> in the house he's "renting" which has a 42 x 48

> shower and another full bathroom. He said " I

> wont have the use of that tub this weekend.

> ...... YUP ...... Some people kids.

>

> Ooops I

> just complained.

>

> Scott

>

>

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 237&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Sounds like a whine and cheese get together

> I remember someone ( maybe Dan ), telling a story

> about a speaker at a trade orginization talking

> about a national retailer doing installs and

> selling equipment. The speaker said it would ruin

> the trade and the small guy could'nt compete. As

> I remember correctly, he was speaking about Sears

> and it was around 1920.

>

> Its the same ol' same

> ol'. The more things change the more the stay the

> same. Like the cable guy says " Get Er Done

> ".

>

> If I looked at the Yellow Pages everyday at

> how many other companys thier are ... I'd quit. I

> don't and I just run my business as best as I

> can. I'm busy.

>

> Hey, do I have no complaints,

> nope. I hate listening to some customers and

> thier complaints ... but ... thats the bowl of

> soup I got, I'll eat it untill its time to

> finish.

>

> By the way, I had a guy call late

> Friday afternoon to tell me that my service guy

> could'nt fix the tub drain on the whirlpool tub

> in the house he's "renting" which has a 42 x 48

> shower and another full bathroom. He said " I

> wont have the use of that tub this weekend.

> ...... YUP ...... Some people kids.

>

> Ooops I

> just complained.

>

> Scott

>

>

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 237&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Sounds like a whine and cheese get together

ask 'em for solutions instead of repeating the obvious over and over.

hot rod

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Plumdog_2

along those lines

If it wasn't for the fact that Oklahoma sucks, Texas would slide into the Gulf.

Dave Stroman

Here is a good one, Mark. A homeowner asks me to look at the job another contractor was doing in his house because he felt the contractor was not doing thing correctly and would not respond to his concerns. I looked it over and told him what I thought should be changed and what to talk to his contractor about. I left. A week later the HO calls me to say he fired his heating contractor and would I give him a bid on completing the job. I finished the job and got paid for all my work. In the mean time the HO is not paying the original contractor and it is going to court. The only problem is I am being sued as well as the HO. They say I bad mouthed them and caused them loss.

Dave in Denver

frank_25

been there....

....didn't do that. Before I accepted the job, I called the other guy and told him no harm intended, I was asked for a consult, and I did my job[.]

Wayco Wayne_2

The new tin men

are the tankless water heater marketing folks. The tankless can be used anywhere for anything. I had a customer ask me to give a price for a tankless on a boiler change out instead of a mod-con. He sez, I saw an ad that claimed blah blah blah.....I guess square pegs can fit in round holes...not. Next week I am taking out 2 tankless heaters that replaced a boiler system and did not work consistantly or effieciently. I'll post before and after pictures. The people moved into this house assuming the heat would work, and ended up not having enough heat and having to relite pilots all the time because of the safetys tripping. Because the system is of improper design and cannot be fixxed as is, the Homeowners Warranty is not going to pay for the upgrade, and the HO is on the hook. I was the 6th person they brought in to try and fix it. I might of been able to do a major piping change and it MIGHT of worked, but I can't put myself in that position, of guaranteeing a "might work" job. A new wall hung mod com is the ticket. The tankless marketers gotta stop saying it will do everything. Not all of the plumbers out there know enough to make the adaptation properly. Boy, did I run on. I guess I like to gripe. :P WW

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clammy

quality

That's what gets me going ,people wanting the gucci job but penny pinching all the way and never wanting to spend a little more to make system over all eff a lot better ,just plan cheapness ,and i have to agree with Al complaining does nothing except drag every body else who's working with you down .As for HO trying to do all and failing at best hey it's there money and if they want to waste it so be it there the ones stuck with the final product .As for inter net companies sell stuff well at least some ones making money just a new preppy thing every bodies some body making millions living big as they sit in there basement staring ,wondering why there heat doesn't work they said it was idiot proof on the web site ?Peace and good luck .Have a great holiday weekend clammy

Perry_2

So what about the homeowner who...

wants to buy a really good quality product - but finds that the local contractors are buried in the past - and don't really want to talk about or deal with modern condensing boilers.

I don't live in an area with a lot of heating contractors.

I doubt I am alone in that. While it is true that most of the US population lives in larger metropolitan areas (where there probably are contractors who keep up and are interested in where the future is); their are a lot of people in the US who don't.

Two sides to this debate.

I will agree that I hate cheapskates; and people who fall for the internet sites that claim: Faster, better, cheaper... and easy to boot...

Perry

[Deleted User]

Perry, where exactly are you located?

THere are soem people who don't advertise here on the Wall that are good contractors. Let's see if we can find you one.

ME

Perry_2

Somewhere under the rainbow...

Mark:

The regional Viessmann rep is checking to see if he can find someone who is familiar with their products and would be willing to travel to my area (I gather there are several in the Milwaukee area - about 90 miles away).

I am going to go back for another round of discussions with my local contractor (who other than focusing on non-condensing boilers has an excellent reputation).

Finally, I will admit that late last week the concept of DIY slipped into my thoughts in my frustration - It's not that I'm not capable of doing a good job - but I am reluctant for several reasons. For one; It would be nice to be able to get service if needed and not be on the "do not respond" list of the local contractors.

Perry

[Deleted User]

Optionally...

Try checking out the Radiant Panels web site at www.radiantpanelassociation.org

They too have some pretty sharp members, and some not...

Let us know how you make out.

And as for the local with no experience on mod cons, send them here for an education. It wouldn't be the first time a consumer referred their local contractor to this site for an education. This is one of the greatest hidden treasure/assets of the hydronic industry. Unfortunately, not everyone knows about it...

ME

[Deleted User]

I felt like Dr. Phil at a cocktail party...

I know, bitching only does the bitcher any good, but we've ALL gotta vent sometime. If we don't, we'll go postal (Sorry Duncan:-)) I don't mind listening, and for the most part, I feel their pains. Been there, done that.

When I want to complain, I come here and confide in Americas best!

Thanks for listening, and I'm still listening too...

ME (AKA, Dr Fill)

Weezbo

There arent enough fingers on my hand to point out

all of the evil fiends maliciously trying to undermine the paranoid.:)

That i dont have a list of every problem that i have ever yet to encounter.

that its all my fault and should have recognized that from the onset.

King Snivelers are allowed to purchase new homes.Furthermore that they expect me to overide the laws of physics just for them ,immediately.

The recent flight of the Ornithopter only flew 1000 feet or so,in 2006/8 over Downsview Park near Toronto. What was Leonardo Da Vinci "Thinking "anyway??? *~/:)

Perry_2

To clarify

Mark:

I supplid the website of this site about 2 weeks ago to the contractor and mentioned that I was interested in looking at a good quality condensing boiler.

I have no idea if they have ever visited. I do know that he does not normally use email (we have been communicating by fax)

To clarify; The contractor is willing to install the Vitodens 200 - but for a price... I had to do the reseach and provide all the piece and part numbers of what I wanted. Gary Jansen who follows The Wall and sometimes post is my regional Viessmann rep and helped me put togther all the part numbers that I needed (Thanks Gary).

I have had email corresondance with a number of other "Wall" memebers on the price difference; and have recieved a variety of informative and thought provoking responses.

Given that the contractor has warned and advised against condensing boilers in every conversation we have had - I have to wonder how much of the "price" to sell me the boiler is related to reasonable profit and how much it is related to other factors. He does admit that I selected a premium quality boiler; and that parts would be available in the future. But, he is always stearing the conversation back to the "tried and true" cast iron boilers.

Hope that helps with the understanding of the situation.

Let's see how this week plays out.

Perry

S Ebels

Clammy

The sad part is that 95% of the people out there wouldn't know a quality HVAC install if they saw it. Until we overcome that hurdle we're just "tilting at windmills".

Leo

Maybe

Maybe you need to keep searching. It sounds like you are trying to convince the Chevrolet dealer to sell you a BMW. I work for an oil company and have worked on one oil fired Viessman in 10 years with a Viessman burner. At this point in time it isn't really worth it for me to get excited and educated on Viessmans as my customer base is full of other brands. Does that make Viessmaan bad, nope, just uncommon around here.
Keep looking for someone who will work on it.
Leo

Weezbo

if you were clairvoient like everybody else,Wayne,

you wouldn't hab deese problems:)

welcome to the club:)))))


it is such a deal we have for you.! means keep away from the yo yo's as you are about to be roped into a new and innovative set of hassles you never even considered possible.

Dave Yates (PAH)

well, now that you asked...

Open systems and bacterial amplification and the turtle-slow movement by code bodies in dealing with this issue.

Hot water scalding and, once again, the turtle-slow movement by code bodies in dealing with this issue.

Recirculation systems and the BS being foisted on consumers regarding them.

That scorched air still has the lion's share of the heating industry.

That solar is virtually ignored.

That design engineers never have to install and service the products they deliver.

That the new mechanical code allows existing equipment to be replaced with identical Btu sized equipment without any permits or inspections, but requires Manual-J, permits and inspections if right-sizing, as a pro, finds the Btu size differs.

That inspectors can't properly inspect because they aren't trained adequately.

That permit fees are no longer associated with the noble intent of protecting the health of the nation, but instead, are thinly disguised tax-fee generators designed solely to fatten the coffers of a governing body.

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clammy

correct Mr.Ebels

You are correct it seems as long as it functions it's ok .It always seems to me that it's all price driven and alot of folks just don't spend it on something nobody in the hood will look and gawk at in awe like paver driveways bmw and all the bling that's what matters .As i am told alot woosh woosh just put the pipe in for pete's sake my 9 year old could do this but she's at her ballet performace and has a play date afterwards .Funny thing is you make a smart suggestion to a HO and they refuse a stupid 50 buck item and 4 hours later there complaining that the safety is blowning off and getting there carpet soaked told them to let me replace the water feeder but no dice thewysaid so now theyget it replaced at nite and of course it's my fault for pick it out now you guess who gets paid for that call nobody .Peace and good luck clammy

Mike T., Swampeast MO

My Big Gripe...

...is nearly complete failure to consider heating systems as actual systems.

I finally bought "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and am thoroughly enjoying even though I'll likely never work on a steam system. I'm struck by two constantly repeated themes--"Crank it down!" and "Consider the entire system!".

We may not have to worry about the hammers from hell with water systems, but otherwise there's not much difference! Fail to consider the entire system and both comfort and efficiency can plummet! Many of the typical "fixes" in hydronics are just as energy robbing as those done with steam!

Forced air manufacturers have done a GREAT job of selling "efficiency" via AFUE and Energy Star. Mid- to upper-90s as an annual utilization efficiency percentage sounds great! Unfortunately, NOBODY (manufacturers, government, contractors) mentions that such efficiency numbers for the appliance have almost nothing to do with the efficiency of the system!!!!

If we are going to produce truly efficient heating and cooling systems, there's MUCH more than offering "good, better, best" boilers!!!

Truly efficient systems begin before an ounce of concrete is poured or a single line of a plan is drawn. It begins with the local climate and the individual orientation of the structure. Granted, heating contractors have little or nothing to say about these things, but you should consider them. After all--you've worked in LOTS of structures and you know what works well, what works reasonably and what works poorly. Don't be afraid to offer your advice at any possible opportunity.

Truly efficient systems end with the habits of the occupants. I'm almost completely convinced that "low, slow and constant" maximizes both efficiency and comfort. Some of the old vapor-"natural" vacuum steam systems achieved this to an amazing degree. Unfortunately we LOST this ability with constant fire burners and on-off thermostats. Those two things, more than anything else, have influenced the habits of the occupants. Now we again have modulating fire burners and alternatives to on-off thermostats have LONG existed. Don't try to make these boiler act like the inefficient things they're replacing just because you don't want to hear a complaint from the user that it doesn't work the same! Understand and explain the differences and how they relate to system efficiency!!!!!