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Find a Professional - Yeah right!

Uni R_2
Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
Todd, does W-M Canada do any training? The Burlington HQ said no.

Comments

  • Uni R
    Uni R Member Posts: 663
    Find a Professional - Yeah right!

    I'm having a hard time finding a professional in the Toronto area to install ModCond boiler - prefence being an Ultra 80.

    Background:
    The house was built in 1975 with electric baseboards. Within a few years an older boiler (circa 1950 Hoffman maybe) was installed using a single zone 1.25" monoflo piping system with constant circ. When I bought the house 13 years ago, there was a fairly new Riello burner on it along with an outdoor reset controller.

    Natural Gas is still the cheapest fuel in the Toronto area and far less volatile in pricing compared to heating oil. Oil heating actually hurts the resale value in this housing market. I have 2 old oil tanks (inside) that are also probably older than 1975 and these need to be removed/replaced. The room that the boiler is in would be far more usable with a wall-hung boiler. I plan to have the flu and venting go up the boilers dedicated 8x8” chimney.

    The measured heatloss is around 70,000 and measuring the 0.65gph burner and run times on near design days confirms that this is quite conservative. Normal operating temperatures for the fin tube baseboards is 130-140 (when the boiler is firing) so I know that condensing will be a good fit.


    Current Situation:
    I originally planned to replace the boiler in August or September but I 'm having a very tough time finding anyone. This is the land of forced air gas heating. The few heating contractors that do boilers tend to do oddball-name stuff like Olsen, RBI and Carrier. As much as I like the Vitodens (and Viessmann isn’t far away and they do know their contractors), I think the W-M Ultra 80 is perfect for this application and seems like it would be cheaper for any maintenance over the boiler’s lifecycle.

    I've talked to W-M. They don't offer contractors training and really have no idea who their contractors are, they only deal with their main wholesaler, and the main wholesaler is in the same boat for not knowing their installing contractors. I'm hesitant to contact the local distributors because their focus is stock numbers and making sure their commercial accounts are paid on time. They’ll gladly sell me one at the discounted price so I’m not so sure if I asked them whether they’d be giving me the names of true pros or true hacks. The yellow pages and the internet searches aren't much help either. Only one wallie is in this province and he's several hours away, which is a bit far for service calls.

    So far the best bet is a very reputable company that has been in the plumbing business forever but they have no experience with the Ultra. From hanging around here over the years I am familiar with some of the issues (the wiring harness is largely inaccessible, leaky nuts, etc) and my preference would be to find someone who has installed several of these.


    Does anyone here have any ideas how I could finally find my pro?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    sure.

    go to Healthyheating .com the Bean has many resources compiled with links all over the country:)
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Maybe you have your answer from your own post

    {"I've talked to W-M. They don't offer contractors training and really have no idea who their contractors are, they only deal with their main wholesaler, and the main wholesaler is in the same boat for not knowing their installing contractors."}

    As a contractor, that statement tells me about all I would need to know about using a W/M boiler.

    I'm thinking Viessmann. especially since they are about in your backyard over in Waterloo. I would dare bet they could put you in touch with someone who knows their stuff too.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,492
    I hope

    contractor friends in Canada read this.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Just a HO
    Just a HO Member Posts: 6


    It's no different here in the states.

    Many of the mfr's have no clue about their contractor base. Just go to their websites and try to locate a contractor.

    I went to several mfr's webstites and couldn't get a listing of contractors or qualified contractors in my area.

    They should be promoting you guys since it's the only way to get their product! I've delayed the purchase of a heating system for over 2 years because I can't locate a decent contractor. How many other HO's are in our position?
  • Sounds like more \"PROS\"

    > It's no different here in the states.

    >

    > Many of

    > the mfr's have no clue about their contractor

    > base. Just go to their websites and try to locate

    > a contractor.

    >

    > I went to several mfr's

    > webstites and couldn't get a listing of

    > contractors or qualified contractors in my

    > area.

    >

    > They should be promoting you guys since

    > it's the only way to get their product! I've

    > delayed the purchase of a heating system for over

    > 2 years because I can't locate a decent

    > contractor. How many other HO's are in our

    > position?



  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    It's not tough here...

    Ted, you just need a TSSA license for doing the fuel. That's it.

    And if I were going to try and import some American talent, a certain Mike in Western NY seems to know Ultras quite well and is probably only a 90 minute drive away.

    Dan, exactly.

    Mr. Ebels, anyone installing Viessmann around here is doing it in multi-million dollar homes with radiant throughout and making serious coin. For an install as simple as this, I could easily see them wanting $20K for an $8K job. But you are right. Viessmann knows exactly who is in my area and Waterloo's only an hour away if ever needed. I might have considered the simpler Vito but it's not out and tested.

    Weez, I have been there many times for other things and must admit I never realized it has links. They could be a bit easier to find from the first page.

    I'm quite surprised that someone doesn't start doing radiant on the cheap for the newer high end non-custom construction in this area and others. Do the slab (all homes here have basements - most are finished) and an air handler so it has the pi** poor central (through the floor) a/c in the summer as any other forced air system in Ontario. Then offer radiant washrooms, kitchens, halls, bedrooms etc. as upgrades before or some even after purchase. Figure out how to get cheap enough skillsets for each stage and make the money off the builders through volume. It certainly wouldn't be very craftsmanlike, but it would see more hydronic inroads being made and it would certainly play well to an audience that is more and more likely to want a boiler for radiant options like towel warmers, snowmelt for sidewalks or driveways, pool heating, not to mention the simple efficiency gains for having an indirect plumbed to the boiler.

    Why am I saying this out loud?
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    I was in Toronto *~/:)

    and it seemed to me that there are some very good General contractors doing a brisk business in radiant.naturally you probably think i am an elitist buh not really i was just a looky loo at the job market near the University.

    i saw some very nice cultured marble entrance ways etc done in radiant and was amazed at the price of it in Canada. understand that the distance from supplies is a bit further off here and some things just are not available..though i remain cautiously optimistic *~/:)

    if you were in the sticks in Canada you have a fair chance even there ...radiant is all over the place now. huge warehouses ,garages manufacturing plants with radiant ...ten year nah..15 years ago and the contractors were definitely into what they were doing.:) trust me.

    there was this Body Human thing and some fancy aerospace and astronomy science deal i went to see, went to some brand new Huge mall thingmabobs :) not like the malls in New York just the same they all were radiant. the thing is there are so many people in them every day ,they calculate heat loss and sensible heat gains and have it down to a science :)

    i went to Trump tower...

    "HEY! IcanFIX THAT LEAK for these people" i was there to see my aunt and uncle...she shushed me and said "Thats part of the design " :)) SURE...it is....:))) R I Ight:)

    everybody has a leak the size of a small stream pouring out the wall of their building three floors up :)))

    don't tell her she might get mad :))


    probably the contractors found it easier to charge them for a water fall than fix a leak:))))

    sorry.i digress.

    back at the plan...it is hard to catch up to them as they are on the run sort to speak. try this it isnt a sure fired deal buh these guys tend to get up, hit it a lick, go long and go home. about 8->10 a.m. they might be at the supply houses. strike up a conversation. have a cup of coffee and ask the counter man if he knows anyone into radiant heating ...and ask if they sel pex Pex Aluminum Pex and just burn some daylight until contractors roll in...maybe see if they have a card on them or if they have a board with their business cards tacked to it......check out a few of the wholesale and large family plumbing stores in your area ...ask about the price of 3/4 copper it is not 20 ' long there ,maybe because they can charge more by the millimeter than the inch:)) sorry. if you ask these counter people they have time of day for you ...and they also know who buys what how often and the people who are hunted down for the occasional job.:) some of the young guys are good at boilers and radiant headers. in Canada everything seems like "Ley's see...what can we TAX next. ?"A?

    that would be my main hurdle trying to think how to bid there.seriously.

    the builders there seem to be different, somehow they seem to make out ok even with some very strange set of taxes...IRSese is bad enough...whatever things i was hearing in Canada sounded way worse..it sounded like the tax structure changed every day...some Russian guy gave me like 160$C for a hundred dollar bill..hey:) "this is way too much ",i insisted..."no no that is fair" he demanded i take it...? what a wonderful set of immigrants you guys have in your country. the exchange rate must be a regular mind bind in thinking out a bid too. that's why i think finding someone in your area is a much wiser thing to do...

    well, Good luck . didnt know i could speak Canadian now did you:)
  • Todd_12
    Todd_12 Member Posts: 55
    Weil Mclain Training

    Weil Mclain DOES offer contractor training. We have just redone our School of Better Heating program and are holding two sessions in September. This program is in our state of the art facility in Eden, NC. It is multiroom, hands on, live fire training center that covers all our products and piping strategies. You can contact our marketing dept. at 219-879-6561 for more info.

    Best regards,
    Todd Schliphack
    Weil Mclain
    Sales Representative
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,492
    And folks,

    I visited the Eden facility last June. That facility, and those classrooms are fantastic. If you get the chance to go I think you'll be very pleased.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Joe Brix
    Joe Brix Member Posts: 626
    Why get married to one brand?

    Plenty of other great makes. NY Trinity has the Inifinty
    and Olsen has the Q90, both Canadian brands. Triangle Tube. Lochnivar, etc. all have great mod/con models. Better to find a good contractor and use what he's familiar with
  • Brian
    Brian Member Posts: 285
    Boiler

    > and it seemed to me that there are some very good

    > General contractors doing a brisk business in

    > radiant.naturally you probably think i am an

    > elitist buh not really i was just a looky loo at

    > the job market near the University.

    >

    > i saw some

    > very nice cultured marble entrance ways etc done

    > in radiant and was amazed at the price of it in

    > Canada. understand that the distance from

    > supplies is a bit further off here and some

    > things just are not available..though i remain

    > cautiously optimistic *~/:)

    >

    > if you were in

    > the sticks in Canada you have a fair chance even

    > there ...radiant is all over the place now. huge

    > warehouses ,garages manufacturing plants with

    > radiant ...ten year nah..15 years ago and the

    > contractors were definitely into what they were

    > doing.:) trust me.

    >

    > there was this Body Human

    > thing and some fancy aerospace and astronomy

    > science deal i went to see, went to some brand

    > new Huge mall thingmabobs :) not like the malls

    > in New York just the same they all were radiant.

    > the thing is there are so many people in them

    > every day ,they calculate heat loss and sensible

    > heat gains and have it down to a science :)

    > i went to Trump tower...

    >

    > "HEY! IcanFIX THAT

    > LEAK for these people" i was there to see my

    > aunt and uncle...she shushed me and said "Thats

    > part of the design " :)) SURE...it is....:))) R

    > I Ight:)

    >

    > everybody has a leak the size of a

    > small stream pouring out the wall of their

    > building three floors up :)))

    >

    > don't tell her

    > she might get mad :))

    >

    > probably the

    > contractors found it easier to charge them for a

    > water fall than fix a leak:))))

    >

    > sorry.i

    > digress.

    >

    > back at the plan...it is hard to

    > catch up to them as they are on the run sort to

    > speak. try this it isnt a sure fired deal buh

    > these guys tend to get up, hit it a lick, go long

    > and go home. about 8-_10 a.m. they might be at

    > the supply houses. strike up a conversation. have

    > a cup of coffee and ask the counter man if he

    > knows anyone into radiant heating ...and ask if

    > they sel pex Pex Aluminum Pex and just burn some

    > daylight until contractors roll in...maybe see if

    > they have a card on them or if they have a board

    > with their business cards tacked to it......check

    > out a few of the wholesale and large family

    > plumbing stores in your area ...ask about the

    > price of 3/4 copper it is not 20 ' long there

    > ,maybe because they can charge more by the

    > millimeter than the inch:)) sorry. if you ask

    > these counter people they have time of day for

    > you ...and they also know who buys what how often

    > and the people who are hunted down for the

    > occasional job.:) some of the young guys are good

    > at boilers and radiant headers. in Canada

    > everything seems like "Ley's see...what can we

    > TAX next. ?"A?

    >

    > that would be my main hurdle

    > trying to think how to bid

    > there.seriously.

    >

    > the builders there seem to be

    > different, somehow they seem to make out ok even

    > with some very strange set of taxes...IRSese is

    > bad enough...whatever things i was hearing in

    > Canada sounded way worse..it sounded like the tax

    > structure changed every day...some Russian guy

    > gave me like 160$C for a hundred dollar

    > bill..hey:) "this is way too much ",i

    > insisted..."no no that is fair" he demanded i

    > take it...? what a wonderful set of immigrants

    > you guys have in your country. the exchange rate

    > must be a regular mind bind in thinking out a bid

    > too. that's why i think finding someone in your

    > area is a much wiser thing to do...

    >

    > well,

    > Good luck . didnt know i could speak Canadian

    > now did you:)



  • Brian
    Brian Member Posts: 285
    Uni-R

    I've been installing GB142's in Central Ontario since they've come out.If you're interested in talking, give me a call.

    Brian Dobbyn
    Dobbyn Plg. & Htg.
    519-335-3376
    AKA Dobber
  • Todd, that's fine as far as it goes

    but you'll find many contractors who aren't in northwest North Carolina or southwest Virginia just don't have the time for a long trip like that- especially if we have to fly there with all the hassles, delays and sometimes-outrageous expenses that involves.

    When the Ultra first came out, one of the local reps did a short seminar on it. I went, but it turned out to be mostly a sales pitch. And of course the boilers were so new they had no idea what, if any, issues they would have.

    You have to bring the training- not just the salesmen- to our areas if you want better attendance. There's nothing wrong with having a main training center such as yours, but it can't do the whole job.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    Boiler 20 -- Average Marriage 5

    Joe, given that a boiler should last 12 to 20 years and the average marriage now only lasts 5, I think I'm allowed to have some preferences. She's going to have to keep me warm many winters, and she better not be hard on the eyes. ;-)

    Unfortunately, the Olsen (I believe it's made by Dunkirk) and the Lochinvar aren't wall hung. The Prestige and the newer smaller Trinity Ti100 aren't written off completely.

    This still gets back to the dilemma of finding a contractor in an area of over 5 million people that is familiar with ModCond boilers regardless of brand. It's harder than it should be.

    Thanks

  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    Hey Brian

    Check your email...
  • Todd_12
    Todd_12 Member Posts: 55
    Training

    The Sales offices do local training also. I'm in the Metro NY office and we have an Ultra Trailer with live fire Ultra Gas, Ultra Oil, and Plus Tank.

  • Todd_12
    Todd_12 Member Posts: 55
    Training

    We also do local training through the sales offices. In the NY Metro office we have a live fire training trailer with an Ultra and Ultra Oil. Contact your sales office and ask about training. The contact info is at www.weil-mclain.com
  • So when

    are you bringing the trailer to Baltimore? If you bring it, we'll be there.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Perry_2
    Perry_2 Member Posts: 381


    opps... Reposted under general thread.
  • Perry_2
    Perry_2 Member Posts: 381
    Uni: Finding a ModCon Contractor is harder than it should be.

    Uni:

    Agreed.

    I feel your pain.

    You mention that you are in an area of over 5 Million people.

    I'm in an area that my estimate of the 20 mile radius is about 50,000 and I estimate the 60 mile radius at about 400,000 people (where you pick up Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh, Found du Lac, and Sheboygan).

    The contractor who was selling Munchins was verbally wondering how he would connect it to my monoflo T system. Apparently, they primarily do radiant floors in new construction. They never submitted a bid. No one else even talkes about ModCons in the immediate area - they wish to stay with the tried and true old boilers.

    Perry
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    Uni R...............................

    Regardless of anyone in the states that may help you, is it worth their time to pursue this matter? If It were me, I would insist on doing my own heat Gain/loss as you can understand, but are you serious when you say that there is NOBODY to be found in your area? Hummmmmmmmm. I don't know if I am the Mike you were referring to in an earlier post, but the last time I was over the boarder was my stagg (1999) and we were detained for 4 hours because the limo driver had a DWI 26 years ago....? Go figure. Talk about the statute of limitations.....;-) I'm sure the rest of his family will no be permitted to cross due to their relation to the guilty party..... Just kidding..;-)

    Mike T. WNY Empire Mechanical Co. 716-648-1763
  • Uni R_2
    Uni R_2 Member Posts: 589
    Watch the shore at 11:45pm

    3 flashes means swim out to the boat. Don't try and swim with large pipe wrenches, but do put the combustion analyzer in double ziplock bags! ;-)

    Yes, you are the "Mike". Sorry for singling you oooot.

    Mike, I'm just kind of frustrated at not being able to easily find someone local to put in an Ultra. If any contractor wants to do their own heatloss, I'll be very happy with that as opposed to asking how many square feet you have and then saying, "Oh you'd need the 140!" (and yes that's not one of the sizes). This happened with a lead from a local supplier.

    My stag was '99 too but the only thing I went across the border for was my better half.
  • Empire_2
    Empire_2 Member Posts: 2,343
    Actually funny you said that....

    Because it's now almost 7:30 PM EST and I just got a call from "Dock At The Bay" for their Banquet room on the second floor. Lake front property so send off some fireworks in about an hour or 2. I am sure I'll still be there since the equipment is precariously hard to service..... Thinking of dropping the account as it's in such a place where OSHA would definitely not be too kind to me if something happened.......

    Mike T.
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    Joe mentioned Olsen

    I do technical support for ECR International - Olsen.

    Give me a call at 888-270-8324. We can certainly assist you in finding one of our dealers in the GTA.

    Michael Breault
    Technical Services / Training
    ECR International - Olsen Division

    [email protected]
    www.ecrltd.com
  • Ken_40
    Ken_40 Member Posts: 1,320
    This is an easy one

    Look in the Yellow pages. Not for contractors, for plumbing suppliers.

    Find those in your area and call asking for the accounts receivable person. Ask for the name of a contractor who buys boilers from them, pays their bills in under 30 days and/or who earns a discount for fast pay and call those contractors only.

    By finding out their pay record, you can determine how "serious" a businessman you have, almost always concurrent with talent - although not always, and find out what brand and how many boilers the contractor buys a month - suggesting expertise?

    Here's an article that may help: http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbviews/2004/good_contractors.asp
  • Tara
    Tara Member Posts: 21
    UniR - did you find a good contractor?

    hi UniR,

    Just wondering if you had any success with finding an experienced and reputable professional to install your boiler? And if so would you recommend that person? I'm looking to replace our boiler in an older Toronto home.

    Thank you!
This discussion has been closed.