Co testing you don't need training

Mitch_6

My one hour north was to Air Purchases to have old testing equipment thrown at me and my one plus hours south to Rhode Island was to sit in a room full of old gas equipment and Kleenex boxes.

Bob was an excellent speaker after his fish stories. He stated his co awareness well.

I understand in 1.5 hours he cannot teach as much as you and Jim do in three days.

When he was asked the question on training he and the other rep he was with stalled for a second then replied

"they do not do individuals or small groups the equipment is simple just call or E mail with questions".

I was taken back, just seemed careless to say it that way, I have been looking and E mailing Bachrach for the classes but there have been non in this area.

Since I have trained with two of the best in this area I feel that he should have given a hint if he is not teaching here how to get proper training.

I know several people that have analyzers and no training when I talk to them I see the mistakes they make. I have also talked to Utility people and Inspectors and they have no clue.

I was OK with the seminar until that last question and answer.

He preached if you don't test you don't know but did not emphasize that you should know what you are looking for and have the proper training to do so.

Mitch S.

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Mitch_6

Co testing you don't need training

Went to gas networks today could only stay half the day.

Wanted to hear some tech stuff from the rep of a combustion analizer.

Bob Dwyer (from Bacharrach) was there, gave a well humored presentation.

Unfortunately talked alot about fishing and did not show how his analizer works. He did do alot of co awareness but in the 1.5 hours how much can you cover.

AT THE END A QUESTION WAS ASKED CAN I GET FURTHER TRAINING ON "HOW TO USE THE ANALIZER"

ANSWER WAS: WELL WE DON'T TRAIN SMALL GROUPS BUT ITS SIMPLE JUST PICK UP THE DEVICE AND USE IT HERE IS MY CARD CALL ME OR E-MAIL ME IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION.

My jaw dropped I have taken classes from two of the best and I still yearn for more information (why I went to the presentation). I would gladly pay for and sit through another three day seminar given by those who know.

How an experienced rep can say you are not important enough to train just turn on and learn is irresponsible and dangerous.

The answer should have been 'get your supplier and manufacturer reps to sponsor a class'.

I have driven one hour north and one plus hours south out of state for training. We need experienced people to sit down and train us how to use the equipment in many applications and exactly what to look for.

I have asked multiple times of my suppliers and even a local school that has alot of equipment oil and gas set up for such training or to sponsor a speaker all on deaf ears.

Buy my product and you're on your own just will not due.

Mitch S.

ps I am not going to forward this directly to him but if you want his E mail is bobdwyer@bresnan.net

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jackchips_2

Why not forward,

Mitch?

Pretty strong stuff and it should be presented to the "target" so to speak so he can respond.

It's never good to hear just one side of an issue.

Jack

Unknown

Well for those looking

for more on How to Use a Combustion Analyzer come see me September 18,19 and 20 and I will try to help you out. By the way I do not fish.

Just for the record Bob Dwyer is an excellent trainer and I am sure he would be the first to tell you that Bachrach does a full days training in many places.

As one who has been a presenter at Gas Networks it is very difficult to cover a lot in a couple of hours. When I first did the conferences for them I would do a full day. They are looking to be able to promote the use of high efficiency equipment so a full day on one subject is not feasible anymore.

To get the proper training to be honest with you is to attend my night classes. They encompass 240 hours cover a full year one night a week. We really get into things in those classes.

My seminars are a full day and the Combustion Testing of Designed Gas Equipment is a full three days with hands on using firing equipment. This course has been fully revised.

The other course is NCI's course with my good friend Jim Davis. Jim's classee are very different from mine butif you get to both of them you will get a very interesting perspective on Combustion Testing.

Biged

This is the reason

nobody can bad mouth Burnham to me, very good product IMO
also when I called Burnham to ask about training they gave be Glen's number and he along with two other guys came to do training AT MY HOUSE (I work out of my house)now that's being serious about your product.So I know what you are saying because I had the same experience with Bacharach from Pete's time but they at least have a traing room on their web-site.

Mad Dog_2

You haven't taken a Jim Davis class yet.........................

He's Doctor CO. It takes a while to get really good with the analyers. I learn everytime I test. Mad Dog

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Unknown

Mad Dog, Mitch has been to

Jim's class and mine. I think he was looking for some direct information about Bachrachs tester from the factory people.

Mitch_6

Yes

Been to Dr co and The gas man. Both great although teach from different angles so you need both.

I also feel there should be a facility (local enough to bring in people) and I know of at least one that we can work on many different types of equipment and play with the adjustments, I find it tough experimenting on H.O. equipment.

As Mad Dog said you can go the the same class several times and still get more out.

I also want to learn from other points of view and experience. Bob and his associate had that and I wanted, willing to pay for it!

I was just put off that if he was unwilling to train small numbers and that there were two people willing to train in our area and I know and you know he knows who I am talking about.

I do not think you get good training by books or on the web on this topic, the readings can be very open to interpretation under varying circumstances.

You need hands on in a lab and an ability to experiment.

I know of too many people that ether should be using analyzers or do have them but have know clue how to use them I.E. sticking the probe in a FHA grill to check for co.

Mitch S.

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Mitch_6

Sorry Mad dog

When I first read every time you test I thought it was like being tested in class not each time you test a piece of equipment but both actually work well.

Mitch S,

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Jim Bergmann_2

Free combustion Guide

Mitch,
Follow the link below, it will take you to the testo website, you can download our combustion guide ~67 pages for free. If you cannot print it or need a hard copy, contact Info@testo.com I know you will find it very helpful. The guide is about combustion and testing and it will help you with whatever equipment you own.

Thanks

Jim Bergmann

http://testousa.com/fallpromo/

Mark Hunt

Mitch


I do not know of ANY manufacturer of testing equipment that teaches what to do when you detect an issue while using their product.

Do not be surprised at this, lawyers are involved.

You've already been through some of the best training in the world. You will find none better.

A manufacturer can tell you how to use their product, but they will not tell you what you can, could or should do to rectify a problem should you find one. I repeat, lawyers are involved.

I have never been to one of Tim's classes but I will try to get to one eventually. (He has to promise not to pick on me in class)

Jim Davis I have experience with. I will be with Jim and George Kerr at ISH for the CO panel.

Long and short of it is....I test, I know what is right and what is wrong regardless of whose testing equipment I am using AND I know what to do to make things right. Bacharach, Testo and all the rest make DIAGNOSTIC equipment. We are the "doctors" that decide the remedy.

None of the test equipment manufacturers will give you that information.

Just in case no-one has told you this, you are a life saver. Thank you for caring!

Mark H

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Jim Bergmann_2

Mark
Support from manufacturers is out there. Teaching people what to and how to do it is what I do for Testo. I am a full time state licensed educator with 16 year experence as a contractor/tech. The Testo combustion guide is full of what to do when and what to look for. I just looked under the bed and in the closet, found no lawyers. If you test, I can assure you and or anyone I would be glad to walk you through the problem, the solution and suggest a protocol to follow.


Jim Bergmann

Testo

HVAC/R Technical Specialist

Mark Hunt

Perhaps


You could send me Testo's protocol?

If I posted misinformation, I will retract it.

Thanks.

Mark H

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Mitch_6

Thanks Jim

I followed the link and requested a hard copy 67 pages is tough for a printer.

I am considering a second Tester right now I have a TSI 6130 I am planning on sending my business partner to Jim's class in October he is not a big heat guy (and been trying to get him to Tim or Jim's class for a while) but if he is motivated properly by Jim, I will give him my TSI and May get the testo since you seem more into your customers than Bacharach.

Thanks

Mitch S.

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Unknown

Mitch look in the

bunch of material you received from me it was handed out in class.

Tony_23

TSI

How do you like your 6130 ? How about support ?

A little late to ask advice, as I have a 6140 scheduled to ship out on 9/13

Being able to change sensors myself for under a $ 100 bill in a couple day's time certainly beats Bacharach's expensive and time consuming policy. I MIGHT get the Bacharach re-sensored someday as a back-up.

The 6140, I think, is a pretty good deal.

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Jim Bergmann_2

Combustion

Mark,
Download the combustion guide, follow the link below, if you would prefer to discuss any of this in a non-public forum contact me at jbergmann@testo.com and I will forward my cell number to you to discuss this directly. I am sure you know your stuff, I have read many of your prior posts, but for the benefit of others, a digital combustion analyzer performs all of the mathematical calculations and measurements necessary to determine efficiency, safety, dew point, and the amount of pollution the appliance is producing. For most technicians, the safety (CO) and efficiency (EFF.) readings will be the most important and most frequently referenced and interesting numbers. When safety or efficiency is compromised, other portions of the chemical reaction (CO2, O2) will be referenced, along with calculated values like excess air, to determine the cause of the problem in the combustion process. Other variables like NOX and SO2 are referenced and controlled to keep them at levels that are safe for the environment and acceptable to the local authority having jurisdiction over these matters.
As a service technician, unless a component has failed, (mechanical problem) there are only three things can be adjusted on a gas/oil appliance that will affect the combustion process.
· Fuel pressure
· Primary air (on newer furnaces this is not adjustable)
· Draft, which provides secondary air
Other factors can affect the combustion process. These include impingement from an improperly placed pilot, excess air from a cracked heat exchanger, insufficient combustion air due to tight construction or improper ventilation, an improperly installed venting system, or incorrect orifices. These are considered defect or installation problems, and require mechanical correction rather than adjustment. It is the service technician’s responsibility to determine if combustion problems are caused by improper adjustment, incorrect installation, component failure, or equipment defect. Therefore, it is important that the technician completely understands how each of the subsystems affects the chemical reaction called combustion.
In other words, no one can tell a technician to adjust gas pressure if the excess air is too high. That would be irresponsible without first having them check all of the other environmental and mechanical subsystems and process that could be affecting the combustion process. The guide I have written addresses those problems. A tech needs to know where to start to look. I do not expect them to be a master of combustion when they open the case the first time. We have a greater interest in all technicians using combustion analyzers properly. If techs are doing a combustion analysis without knowledge of what the readings mean, why do them at all?

Mitch_6

Tim & Tony

Tim:

I always check reference material and typically copy's of important stuff in my truck since "I think I will blow the tires out if I put all your manuals in it".

Any chance of getting this stuff on CD "TONS OF GREAT INFO BUT TOUGH TO KEEP IT ALL ON HAND AND INDEX FAST"

I also like which started all this getting info from many points some time you get that one tidbit that bails you out on a tough call.

Tony:

6130 appears to work well I have little experience with other testers but when I brought it to Tim's class we found it reading co at lower rates than the Bacharach or Testo units. Anyone with any experience with theis units finds no two read exactly the same "THIS IS BIG TO MY POINT THAT THERE IS ALOT OF ART TO THIS SCIENCE" One concern I have using different units is keeping track of specific equipment if I use a TSI one year and Testo the next my readings will be different just based on the testers making performance tracking tough.

Mitch S.

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Jim Bergmann_2

Make sure the equipment you are using is specifically designed to measure low levels of CO and incorporates a NO filter. Many combustion analyzers still manufactured and methods used for low-level CO detection have inherent error in instrumentation or the measurement process. While Testo is a leader in this technology, other manufacturers are following suit. Industry has still not caught up to technology often leaving the technician in the dark when using instrumentation and making an informed decision. This is where the art with some equipemnt comes in. If you read the combustion guide, much of this is discussed. Including why the efficiency numbers differ.

Rudy

Give me a break...

Mitch, sorry Bob gave you the impression that it was as easy as picking up an instrument and going from there.

Honestly, Bob is the man, it’s just that in 1 ½ hours he is mostly trying to get your interest up and keep you entertained – absolutely nothing wrong with that!

Plus, Bob lives in Montana - he loves to fish and has alot of great fishing stories!!

Bacharach has hired several guys who know CO/combustion and have many, many years of experience with the issues.

Bob and I have been with it since the early 80’s.

He gave you his number (406-752-5793) and I’ll give you mine (412-576-1350). You are free to call either of us ……. Anytime….

Having access to phone numbers that you can call and talk to real folks who have years of experience to help you out seems to me to be more than most manufacturer’s offer.

JMHO, rudy

Unknown

CO & my fire department

Interesting conversation today with my hometown fire department which was displaying smoke and CO detectors for our "town day." Seems none of them (the firemen) had any idea of what low level CO detectors are. Further, thier first response equipment (carried on evry truck) is a simple belt fastened device that sounds at 30-50ppm after 10 minutes. The instruments callibration records could not be found. They really didn't know what to do with me from there!

I was then told that The Fire Chief has a better one "with a wand" but they couldn't show it to me or tell me what he uses it for.

So from what I learned today, the people who are suposed to know about this stuff haven't a clue.



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Jim Davis

Such an interesting subject

These always weem to come up when I am out of town doing a seminar.
Bob Dwyer is a knowledgeable person, I know because I trained and worked with him for almost 15 years, and Rudy for 20 years. I think Bob would like to probably refrase his comment. But remember anytime someone works for a manufacturer their main goal is to sell equipment. Their second goal is not to create any liability for themselves so they are very limited in how much information they can give out in their training. Their third goal is not to offend anyone because this could cost them a sale or referral. I personally would rather lose a sale and offend someone rather than jeopardize someone else's life. I do teach from a really weird perspective!

When I read recent articles that say it is okay for equipment to spill for the first 10 minutes of operation because that is the standard someones lack of experience and ignorance speaks for itself. When I read recommendations to follow the venting tables that specifically state "NO SAFETY FACTORS" have been included the writer has no value on people lives. I would find a greater sense of security consulting with a local mental institution than most authorities having jurisdiction. Who is the local authority that has jurisdiction on how much CO a customer can have in their house that was written in some articles I just read??? I thought the HVAC industry was the qualified, competent, credible and knowledgeable trade on these matters.

NOX filters do not make an anaylyzer better than another. It just makes them read 10 to 20 ppm less than those that don't. TSI has a NOX filter and I find that has no advantage over an analyzer that doesn't. The response time is more critical in diagnosing problems and if it is slow, diagnostics are more difficult and NOX filters have nothing to do with it!!

Also, no manufacturer should take a position or is in a position to make comments on what contractors should or shouldn't do in the field. Readings articles that say we don't recommend fixing things certain ways only shows more lack of knowledge and concern.

Mitch, I am sorry Bob made that comment because I know he is a good guy and might have been frustrated because there wasn't a big crownd on hand. I know the feeling sometimes.

Think I will respond to the other CO post before I get too carried away here.

Gary Reecher_2

That link provides a fill out sheet, but where it says download in the left side there is no down load link.


Gary Reecher

Ron Schroeder

Gary

Fill out the form hit send and it will ask where to download

Mitch_6

Rudy

Bob seemed like great guy and very knowledgeable in co.
He strongly expressed his concerns and his frustration with UL listed alarms and similar problems in lack of education in the industry.

I have been to Bacharach's web site many times and visit the training room and have also checked training sessions and you never seem to have them.

I do not know if you were that second person with him but the way the question was asked and I could see at that moment a bunch of people wanting more info on training and then a pause with Bob and the other person looking at each other like they (could have said) "we are not training now but we know were you can look for training".

But just the you have to be a large group! But its OK easy to use just turn it on, did not match all he said before.

Also he rushed through slides like crazy at the end, why have all that fish stuff up if you do not have enough time for a presentation, Not like there were alot questions getting him off track during the presentation, mostly all eyes and ears trying to suck it all in.

Just a perspective of one person with a little knowledge that was siting at a table trying to learn some more.

Mitch S.

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Mitch_6

Rudy Cont.

Forgot to mention By coincidence this month and next both Jim and Tim are doing Co training, both are equipment neutral Jim does stress his TSI just a little but he stands by Bacharach as an industry standard he learned on.

The opportunity was so prime to get a room full of guys(sorry did not see any girls in the class) in the right direction.

And for sales, "first" question at the end of both classes is were can I buy this stuff and a Jim's Class at Air Purchases he sends them right down stairs to the counter were they sell the Bacharach.

It was pretty sad that such an opportunity was lost.

This is the primary motive for my posting, the lost opportunity for so much, the more my fellow tradesman know on this topic the more standardised testing will be the better for "ALL"

Mitch S,

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Unknown

Simple answer and please

do not mis understand what I am saying here.Gas Networks needs to have people doing training who are in the trenchs everyday with this equipment. It is however the purpose of most trade shows to sell product and most of the time the limited presentation time does not allow for real intense training.

If the New England Gas companies are going to emphasize combustion testing then they need to sponsor a three day training session to get it done properly.

I would love to do a session with the Testo folks one day, Bacharach the next and TSI or UEI the next. That mixed with myself, Jim Davis, George Lanthier what a training venue. Forget three days how about a week. Anyone game????

Mitch_6

of course you know I am in Tim

But I really would like to have the class at A place with lots of equipment maybe oil and gas, air and hydroponic.

There are a couple of (post high school) trade schools one in my area were real hands on playing with the equipment would really help people learn quick.

I got my HVAC and oil tech certificats there and the hands on was a major plus.

Mitch S.

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Unknown

An even better place would be

NEFI in Watertown, MA, They have all kinds of equipment.

Casper G Host

Gas Networks CO Training.

Having attened the CO training at the Gas networks conference I am surprised that your not praising Bob for cluing you into the secret's of CO testing. I guess you missed the message that the only way prevent CO poisoning is to test for CO. Bob covered all the proper places to test appliances, covered the CO alarm standards, and even gave some insight into Building pressure diagonstics and their affect on CO generation. I have both Testo and Bacharach instruments and find them easy to use. Simply put it really is a matter of Turning the insruments on and testing all aplications to find the problems, the bacharach training room has plenty more information to help. If you still need someone to hold your hand give Bob or Rudy at Bacharach a call. By the way I liked the Fish picture.

Mitch_6

You are missing my point

As in my other posts on this topic Yes Bob was a good speaker (although rushed in the end). He quickly went over "some" places to test but not the actual use of the equipment or interpretations of readings.

I was with him all the way since this was a quick intro 1.5 hour class in to co. and combustion testing but as you know it cannot all be covered so quick most classes are three days long.

What got me was his not pushing training and if he was not going to do it he should have pointed to those who will. Timmy is teaching this month and Jim is teaching next month in this area. I am sure Bob knows of both of them and should have pushed for one or to tell people to have someone sponsor a Bacharach class.

That last point "just turn on and learn call if you have a question" got me.

Mitch S.

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