Which ciirculator is better TACO OR GRUNDFOS

Brad White_9

with the others when they say you absolutely need to meet your performance. Both brands are excellent. Personally I favor Grundfos (the versatile 3-speeds and VS models) for flexibility, but will gladly specify a Taco 00 model when the application calls for it. It depends...

DAVID HANSEN

WATER CIRCULATORS

WHICH CIRCULATOR IN YOUR EXPERIENCE IS BETTER TACO OR GRUNDFOS .

THANK FOR YOUR HELP

John Ruhnke

It depends........................

Dave,

It depends on the application. You have to look at your design requirements, head and flow rates that you need, then pick the pump curve that best works with your application. It could be either Taco or Grundfos. You can download the curves from the internet.

JR

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Ken_40

David,

Both are quality units, perhaps the two "best" commonly made at this time!

Given the high quality of both manufacturers, I would make sure the performance curves (head vs. GPMs) and features (Internal checks, isolation flange array/options, are appropos) - and if close enough to be true equals - buy on price and wholesaler reputation and proximity.

Josh_10

Taco!!!

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John White

opinion

Anyone want mine???

Al Corelli_2

Better? or Better Suited?

The only time I have a preference is when trying to match colors in the boiler room, or when running an indirect off of a steam boiler. For the steam condensate powered indirect, Tacos are the only choice.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Interesting question

From my perspective.....

The first step is to determine which pump model best meets your needs. Each mfgr has flow charts that are both easy to read and chock-full of great info. Both have similar products with multiple speed models, delta-P and delta-T models too.

Next comes your supplier and their stocking levels.

But, perhaps most importantly, which mfgr is most approachable; which one can you readily call for tech service; which one gives the most back to their employees and the community; which one most cares about you and helping you to be profitable.



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Weezbo

*~/:)

now lemme guess what would Johnny White say ...Hmmmm....

Joe Mattiello

One of the best attributes of the Taco circulator is the replaceable cartridge assembly

bob young

anyone ever hear of bell & gossett

David Sutton_6

HMMMMM witch one would you pick Johnny ???

LOL, LOL

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Unknown

hellooooo

Where's Johnnny?

D107

any problems with circs with built-in flow checks?

one installer has told me he's had problems with some of the grundfos with the built-ins. Do all grundfos' have that? Do you prefer separate flow checks?

David

Brad White_110

IFC's

Integral flow checks are common to many lines these days but not on every circulator. The ones that have them are differentiated in their model number such as "IFC" or similar suffix. Curves are published for with and without, surprisingly little difference I have seen between them.

The only issues I have heard regarding IFC's are that they can make purging difficult and being fine orifices can clog (but you should flush your system better anyway and get a strainer for crying out loud).

The Taco circulators had them on the suction side initially which was a problem, cavitation I imagine. Taco stepped up to the plate and made a correction quite graciously to their credit.

Personally, I like them if I have a budget job with several circulators but could go either way. On a single-circulator job I would go with a bona-fide IFC if space permits. Not a strong feeling either way.

hr

IFC circs tend to air lock easily

especially if you place them where air tends to rise and trap over the summer. The high side, and straight up and off a primary loop is a prime example.

I suspect it has to do with the close proximity of the check to the volute. With a seperate check you had a few inches of space to collect air. With the intergral checks, less than 1/2" before the bubble sees the impeller.

Chose your positions carefully

hot rod

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Brad White_110

Hot Rod

The setup I am working on now is much as you describe, off the top of an EZ Header after a Spirovent and ExTank. So the starting of the circulator will not purge the sucker or does the air locking tend to fill the volute as well? That is what I am gathering from what you are writing.

I think I will pop the IFC out and install a proper flow check.

Thanks

bob young

combo vs. independant

I was always a firm believer in separate components. remember those combo t.v. , stereo phonograph & radio. one goes bad scrap the whole works or commit suicide.

Keith_8

B&G

B&G makes a great product in my opinion. Their support or customer service is pathetic from my point of view. I'm not sure if it's the local rep or the manufactorur themsleves. I suspect it's both. The local dealer who was just bought out and closed down seemed to take business for granted. The manufactorur has ridiculas lead times for product.

Taco and Grundfoss don't abuse their customers the way B&G has been abusing. Why is it I can get base mounted Peerless pumps in 3 weeks but it takes B&G 6-8 weeks?

Last week was the icing on the cake. 3 weeks ago I order (2) HD3 pumps (replacements), I'm told they are in stock in Mass and I'll get them in a few days. No problem, send them to the shop. A week and half later no pumps, I call, what's up? No pumps in stock, they are making them at the factory and you will see them in about 3-4 weeks. But.... if you want for another 20% we can expidite them out next week. Are you kidding me?

After confirming it was the manufactorur and not the wholesaler I blow my stack. If it was the wholesalers mistake no problem, this guy has always done right by me and is entitled to making a mistake just like the rest of us. No it's B&G and their usual attitude of TAKING THE CUSTOMER/BUSINESS FOR GRANTED. Forget the B&G pumps, give me the Grundfoss equivilent, I'll repipe it and forget about it. This is about the 4th time in the last couple years something similiar has happened, I'm done. If they don't care neither do I.

B&G take notice, there are other manufactorurs who realize what you are up to. They are taking care of business.

I don't react in this fashion often. I am a graduate of (2) Little Red School House Courses. I learned a great deal at these classes and have alway's used and supported B&G products. I am a loyal customer to a point. When I feel violated it's over.

Sorry for the rant but enough is enough.

Lets see if B&G has anything to say?

Keith

Unknown

Brad

Before we made the jump to IFCs we used separate circs and flowvalves . Not once was any hot water system so fouled up we needed a strainer .

The problem with the IFCs , and it is a very limited problem , is that smaller particles , thread sealant , solder chunks get caught at the check and hang it open . Junk that would normally pass right through a flowvalve .

Very limited problem though . Maybe a handful so far had this happen out of thousands installed .

Dave Yates (PAH)

agreed

We haven't experienced any problems with the IFC models - yet - but we always use isolation flanges, so even if we see a problem it will be a breeze to correct.

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hr

Ideally

you wouldn't have any air in the system to create and air lock problem. Systems with a row of circs piped directly off the top of a loop or header that is the highest point in the system seem to be more prone.

Even if you can rotate the header at a 45 so the actual take off is below the top of the pipe. This allows air to move along the top portion of the pipe or header to get another trip around and find the purger waiting.

Some installers will use an under-slung piping arrangement. Pull the header taps downward and loop around to the top position. It can also serve as a thermal drop, properly done.

I'd guess with a spiro located that closely to your take-off you should be protected.

I've yet to come up with a clear plastic volute to see exactly how much of an air pocket will coax the IFC circs into a cavitation problem. Be interesting to play with one, however :)Certainly high head (high rpm) circs are more prone to cavitate.

Purge it well, use a good micro bubble resorber, and addd a conditioner like Rhomar that has O2 scavangers to assure all is well.

hot rod

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Ken_40

Ron Jr.,

Which is why we always chemically cleaned all installs with TSP, were exceedingly careful about which pipe dope we used and, made sure the inside of the system was as cleaned as the visible side.

I cannot overemphasize the importance of cleaning the "micro-scale," rust, particulate matter, pipe dope residual, and flux (the single most corrosive element imaginable) from the system - whether a new install - or a replacement system to an existing one.

It is still my contention, based on almost 40 years in the biz, that no "oil-based" dope should ever be used on a steam system install. Under steaming temperatures, every pipe dope I've seen leaches contaminants back to the boiler and causes totally avoidable priming and surging. Boiler treatments do not remove that agent, they merely trap the surface impurity and sink them to the boiler block bottom - thereby creating a sludge that eventually turns to a concrete like coating that compromises cast iron or steel boiler's life dramatically.

Teflon tape was and still is not only our first choice, it is the only choice IMHO

Unknown

We haven't used

a cleaning product in a water boiler yet , but as these system age and the use of more advanced components ( IFC circs , LWCOs ) it will become a necessity . One of my partners got me in the habit of purging a new install with cold water , then hot . I know it doesn't remove everything a cleaner would , but it flushes out the system more thoroughly than a cold purge alone .

Ken , what do you and your guys use for thread sealant on steam ? I admit we use Rectorseal #5 , oil based . The sealant runs down the outside of the pipe when steam first hits it , I can image whats coming off inside . That , and the fact we had quite a few leaking joints with anything over 3 inch with that sealant .

Ken_40

Ron,

Your conclusion of the "seen" Rectorseal #5 on the outside of the piping when hot, drooling and chemically "separating," as problematic, is the very basis of my contention of the exact same thing happens INSIDE the pipe - contaminating the boiler water and causing priming/surging.

Since we could not find any other reason for a steam boiler, properly skimmed and TSP'd, rinsed and then skimmed again for hours, to return to a priming and surging state all over again, we knew the pipe dope had to be the problem source.

Once we switched to pure teflon tape pipe dope, the TSP boiler boil-out and single skim, it resulted in a never having a prime/surge call-back, ever.

Having messed with this problem extensively, I am absolutely confident in stating, oil based dope should NOT be used on anything but gas piping.

We also found that carefully cleaning the threads with a wire brush and perhaps even a chemical cleaning with carb cleaner (which we bought by the case) to remove machine oils from the pipe threads, before carefully running exactly two full "turns" of teflon tape so you can barely see the exposed tape - makes for a very neat and clean doping. We never got too carried away with the "skip the first two threads" notion on steam pipe.

It is always good to remember, pipe dope is not primarily meant to be a sealant, but rather a lubricant.