Customer buys own boiler

Eric_25

I agree with you to a point.
First comment is you can buy Trane equipment hot air and A/C units off the shelf at big orange since they bought out a distributor in Atlanta a few years ago, thats how they get around the wholesale end, they sell it to themselves at wholesale prices ( probably 20% cheaper than you and I can buy it).

WE will install equipment especially RTU's purchased by the end user, it happens all the time with big chains, ( most of the big chains have national account agreements with manufacturers)we do however still add our mark-up to the job just the same if we bought the units ourselves. Homeowners no way, you buy it we don't touch it.


<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=397&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Wayco Wayne_2

I was

recently contacted by a Homeowner who has bought his own Mod Con boiler and offered me the job of installing it. I declined letting him know I would make less money without the markup I usually make on the boiler, plus I feel it would cloud up any warranty issues. What if there was problems with the job. Who would be the judge if it was the product or the installer? The chance of this happening is part of why we mark up. Who knows if there will be problems down the road. Shouldnt there be some cushion to throw towards that possibility? I used to get calls from people who would buy Munchkins on line and then have their plumbers install them. Trying to save a buck. Last year I consulted a job where someone installed a 199,000 Munchkin on a radiant floor needing about 30000 btu's. Guess what size circulator? It was green and it had 007 on the side. He didnt like my diagnoses and never did pay me for my time. Perhaps people looking to cut the contractors out of the mark up loop can be type cast as cheap sons of guns. It raises my defenses and I usually decline. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Robert O'Brien

I used

to feel the same way,but it's becoming more common. I will do the job for my usual price less my cost for boiler. Assuming it's a model I feel comfortable being associated with and of the relatively proper size.The customer actually saves no money but if slicing the pie this way makes them feel better,fine with me.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

toearly_2

> recently contacted by a Homeowner who has bought

> his own Mod Con boiler and offered me the job of

> installing it. I declined letting him know I

> would make less money without the markup I

> usually make on the boiler, plus I feel it would

> cloud up any warranty issues. What if there was

> problems with the job. Who would be the judge if

> it was the product or the installer? The chance

> of this happening is part of why we mark up. Who

> knows if there will be problems down the road.

> Shouldnt there be some cushion to throw towards

> that possibility? I used to get calls from people

> who would buy Munchkins on line and then have

> their plumbers install them. Trying to save a

> buck. Last year I consulted a job where someone

> installed a 199,000 Munchkin on a radiant floor

> needing about 30000 btu's. Guess what size

> circulator? It was green and it had 007 on the

> side. He didnt like my diagnoses and never did

> pay me for my time. Perhaps people looking to cut

> the contractors out of the mark up loop can be

> type cast as cheap sons of guns. It raises my

> defenses and I usually decline. WW

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 255&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

toearly_2

Wayne

Good move on the decline. There are greater reasons to decline owner supplied material.
Insurance.

Let's say you installed the boiler and something went wrong. Wrong to the point where insurance companies became involved. Let's say you were not at fault and it turned out to be something with the equipment. The HO files a claim.His insurance company names you in a suit even though you did nothing wrong. You file a claim with your insurance carrier. They look into it and agree with you. You did nothing wrong. You just lost the blanket of your insurance carrier. You are still named in a suit and it is now up to you to either pay the claim or pay a lawyer to fight it.

I have never had this happen. But in this day and age it is not worth the loss. Right or wrong you still can bet sued.


David



> recently contacted by a Homeowner who has bought

> his own Mod Con boiler and offered me the job of

> installing it. I declined letting him know I

> would make less money without the markup

Steve_35

We do the same thing.

We need $X gross profit per man day. The quote is based on this, not the equipment we install.

Home Depot Employee

Call the manufacturer and tell them how you feel

Maybe you should all ask yourself why you would continue to purchase the product and support the manufacturer that allows distributors & wholesalers to sell or allow to be sold new equipment on the internet. Take a lesson from the warm air side for instance, try to buy a new American Standard or Trane unit on the internet from anyone other than a retail person that has a mistake or used unit to sell. It won't happen! It is in the distributor agreement and is not allowed! Do it and lose the line!

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

friends, family & the internet

We recently had a similar situation. The HO has a son who is a plumber & lives far enough away that the son can't (or doesn't know how to) do the installation. It too was a mod-con. As noted above, profits remain in pricing for owner-supplied goods and the HO must sign our form assigning full responsibility onto themselves. Our form has them acknowledge that there is no warranty from my firm on the installation and explains why. His was a moderately difficult retrofit that required extensive modification to comply with the mod-con's installation instructions. The son told him it was a simple swap-out. Don't know who did the install, but I suspect he "caught" the fish he was looking for. Good luck!

The warranty issue alone has stopped a few builders and HO's from supplying products. If it breaks during installation (cheap foreign thin-china like ped sinks), doesn't fit, requires modification (foreign faucets that look great but have metric tubing sizes), must be returned or needs any repairs - all time and materials will be billed as an extra on a T&M basis. You want me to return some defective product to the big box guys, stand in line and wait my turn on your nickle? No problem mate, just sign here.



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Glen

In Canada -

if you follow all the rules, purchase required permit(s), perform due diligence re inspection and HO instruction. You still own the installation for a long time. Your company needs that mark up to pay for the fees of being a licensed boiler and gas contractor, bonds, liability insurance and a host of other items that do not come cheap. Putting this in just for the hourly is a waste of your time. That said - we read too many reports where the HO puts in the heating appiance with the help of the buddies and a case of bud - and then goes bang or worse. I generally make the local inspector aware of the work - and let him ensure the HO adheres to the safety of the job. If the HO declines the experience of your talents - then he should at least respect the same rules we do.

Mark Hunt

Eric


That must be a local issue since Trane equipment is not sold at the big orange in New York.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Charles G.

Home owners

I wonder if these people take their own food to the restaurant & ask the cook to prepare it for them?

Home Depot Employee

If you've ever taken your own wine to a restaurant, they charge you a "corkage" fee.

Brad White_9

When I have done this

(come upon a piece of equipment to be installed or got a particularly good deal), I offer to the installing contractor his normal mark-up. I think it is only fair.

Josh_10

That is a good answer! I think we do need to tell the manufacturers how we feel. They are seriously biting the hand that feeds.

I recently had a job like this as well. The customer went to one of my suppliers. Perhaps the biggest supplier. We'll just call em the big F. They sold it to him for $20 more than I pay!!! And this isn't just any boiler! This was a Weil-McLain Ultra. Why in the world would you sell this to a homeowner for only $20 more than your regular and real customers pay.

That is why I don't buy many Weil-McLains anymore...

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

This seems to come up time and again, and for the record, we don't sell boilers to HO's, and always tell them to have a local pro provide and install the boiler and trim hardware. That's not a place I want to help a DIY'er hurt themselves or make my system perform badly.

However.. guys, the age of information and the internet is here. Your value as part salesmen is gone, from the consumer's point of view. Your value is your knowledge and your expertise at your trade. If you haven't already, I would suggest that you figure out a plan B for pricing that involves making the money you need to make without part markup.

For instance, on our jobs, our design fee comes in two flavors; with part purchase and without. We charge the much higher without part design fee up front. At the end of the job, if they purchased through us, we refund the difference on the last part order of the project (or a pro rated amount based on how much of it they did purchase through us).

This does two things. One, it means we get paid whether we sell parts or not. Two, it means we are more likely to get the part sale because of the overall economy.. if we're making money on the parts, we don't need to charge as much for our time. Everthing is explained up front and above board, and it's pretty rare we don't end up selling the parts anyway. Part of our design includes parts lists. Once we're paid and designing, we give them the parts lists, and tell them to go find a better deal if they can, if they want to. Then they can really get themselves the best deal, if we're not competitive, then so be it... we're still covered.

Client knows what they are getting, what they are paying, and why.

some of these people are cheap.. and some have gotten the double-sized "quote blow off" one too many times to trust your package price to be what it should be. Don't make them trust you. Show them you aren't ripping them off.

Boston

You know, at the end of the day, 10 years from now, plumbing and heating will be remarkably less complex than it is today. Tacos recent intro of a raidiant injection block is an example.....

The reason - because we actually think people will be willing to pay 80 dollars and hour for a bunch of people that never went to college.

Before you get all updet - I know we spent many years getting licensed - there are many college educated people with 10-15 years experience that make a lot less per hour than we do.

My point is, don't take things for granted. I will guarantee that things will shift. Does anyone remeber what things were like in 1995?

Or 1973?

Save your money. Everything reverts to the mean over time.

mtfallsmikey

I remember '73, and way before too

This is not a new issue. All started in the early to mid '80's. Many wholesalers selling OTC to anybody. Home Despot just bought Hughes Supply, only the 2nd largest wholesaler to Ferguson,who has gotten into HVAC in a big way over the past few years. And yes, Trane equipment is sold in HD in Northern Va. as well.

Jeff Lawrence_25

HD Bought Apex

Because they wanted into the wholesale side. HD, here in Georgia, can't sell direct because we have to have a state issued warm air card to purchase HVAC equipment. They DO have contractors manning a booth in the store to sell Trane equipment, but the contractor still has to go to Apex to get the equipment. The only thing HD gets out of the 'bargin' is a share of the sale.

Recently, HD bought Hughes Supply to be able to have another aspect of the wholesale market. The local HS sells Rheem equipment and I've not heard of any plans to put the Rheem contractors in the stores.

Getting back to the original topic, if we don't supply it, we don't install it. Paper trail and warranty issues is what I tell the homeowner.

hr

If it's a brand you are

comfortable with, add your typical mark-up, or so, and install it. The warranty will be through the factory regardless if you or they buy.

I know it sounds like the manufactures are working around the contractors but they need to move units out the door also.

Typically it is not the manufacture selling via www but a wholesaler that has an online store. Seems more and more product is being sold this way. Lots of automobiles sold via the internet also. Warranty goes with the vehicle regardless of where it is sold from.

Local car dealers were upset at first, now virtually all have an online presence.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

But....

the homeowner doesn't install the engine in the car!

I've received many calls over the years to install boilers (or fixtures) purchased by the HO. We add our profit and do it some of the time, with strict warranty exclusions...if the owner is willing to pay our price. Most are bargain shoppers and looking for "a deal", not a quality install.

I don't understand why large wholesalers are selling mod-cons over the counter. Yesterday a homeowner purchased a Buderus GB and an Amtrol indirect from the "Big F", and asked if I'd install. The answer was no. Homeowners should not be messing with mod-cons, or any boiler installation for that matter, without proper training. I realize the Internet is the Great Equalizer and offers anything for sale.

Soon, you'll be able to buy "Self Surgery" kits....it will save lots, compared to going to a doctor.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Josh_10

I'm with Paul. Why is it that HO's always want to do their own radiant? I have never had a HO call and ask me to help them with a furnace.

I just want to know what makes home owners think radiant floor heating is easier to install than forced air?

I was recently contacted by housing for hope. They asked me to come up with a design that the average home owner could install. Their thinking was that radiant is easier to install and anyone can do it. After all you just staple tubing to the floor right?

I think that tubing is all people really see. They think one size fits all. They don't think about the near boiler piping, controls, or pump sizing.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Well, I do have a few hundred projects behind me that prove that *with assistance*, installing pipe is not a $75-$100/hr master plumber kind of job. It's grunt work. That's an awful lot of saved labor costs if they do that themselves. FHA systems are cheap; what's the point of DIY'ing it if the contractor can do it fast enough to be economical?

Maybe if FHA systems were coming in at $40k to $80k installed, you'd see more people trying to save some bucks on them too, but they aren't, and radiant is. It's labor intensive, and labor is something a DIY'er can provide cheaply. It's not about radiant being *easier*. It's about radiant being 4x or 5x the cost!

Now the mech room, as you noted, can be a different story, and the boiler is definitely off-limits IMHO.

I don't understand what the difficulty is with charging for the value you provide. Your value is not being a part salesman (to the consumer), your value is what's in your head and your time as an experienced competant professional. So if parts are taken out of the equation, charge what you need to charge to appropriately value yourself anyway!

What is so complicated about that?

JCD

From a HO

I read NRT. Robs posts here and as a homeowner, I feel that he might best reflect the HO concerns.

#1) HO concerns about being ripped off. An example- my brother would take his car in to have the A/C recharged every other year and the (supposedly reputable) shop would always charge $120.00 for a leakage test, (“Law requires it, ya know”), in addition to the recharge. Finally he went to an auto parts store and bought a recharge kit for $45.00 and followed the instructions. And then he said, never again to the shop doing it. Honestly this is a biggie, read websites HO directed, “How do I keep from getting ripped off?” is a big topic.

#2) The internet. I can go to web sites that tell me they will sell me everything I need. And these web sites tell me that I can do it. And then there are those people on TV that keep telling me that “You can do it, we can help.” That IS the reality of it. Is there a lot of junk and buyer beware out there, yes, however balance that against the first sentence of #1. Fear is a great motivator.

Really though, I think HO’s are the least of your worries. Handymen, those affable jack of all trades and master of none; are who you should really fear. Had a friend from high school whose father was a handy man, now the son is. Boy, those two guys can go through a dozen projects in a week. “Electrical, sure we do that, Plumbing? Let me pencil you in my schedule. Water heater, oh yeah, we do those all the time. Boiler, well I know we done few.” These guys are who you should be on guard against.

Josh (Y) wrote: I just want to know what makes home owners think radiant floor heating is easier to install than forced air? From a HO’s point of view, again the “you can do it, we can help guys”, have people believing we can all put in a basement bathroom in a weekend. And from plumbing water to a sink to installing radiant does not seem like that big a stretch. (Hey it's just more pipe and -What we don’t know can’t hurt us, right?) Those web sites tell us this, and the orange apron guys reinforce it. And honestly, if a contractor over sizes a heating unit or a HO does it, what is the difference? They are both jobs poorly done and the HO is the one who takes it in the shorts.

You guys – and this website – are a cut above the rest. Your knowledge here and the on-going search for more like Mike T. and his eurocave postings, Hot Rod’s plate test picture postings, and the other postings of explanations that even some of us HO can understand are great, you guys serve as a bulwark for people who try to make informed decisions.

There will always be people who want it done cheap, and then argue for it even cheaper. An honest person knows that you can’t get something for nothing. I think the movie “the Flim Flam Man” years ago covered this well. Do you really want to chase down and do business with these cheapskates?

NRT.Rob is right when he says what you guys have to sell is knowledge. However, only a person who values knowledge will value your knowledge. And as Will Rogers said, “Common sense is not all that common.” It’s just the world we live in. Jim-HO

CC.Rob

Hear hear! HO 2

Generally in agreement here.

I would also add/amplify that this website has been an immeasureably useful resource for me. I am a far, far better consumer for coming here. That probably helps you guys in at least two ways: 1) we are increasingly aware that getting this stuff right is important, and not always DIY-able or doable "on the cheap." And 2) we gain insight into the value that we get when we hire someone who really knows what they're doing. I only wish I knew a quarter of what I know now about hydronics three years ago when we were throwing good money after bad.

Thanks once again for making the Wall such a neat community that's accessible to the masses.

There's more, but I'm supposed to be paying attention to the video screen to my left....

Perry_2

Another HO - and a small business person

Another area of concern is with the person, such as myself, who has a "side" business in addition to their day job. Because I have that side business - I can using my business name to register - buy lots of stuff from wholesalers and contractor supply houses.

So if I were to push it; I'll bet I could buy a boiler - or other things.

On the other hand: You should be glad for the people who are calling you to install. Pitch them the right line and you can have a decent profitable job. Of course, you may have to tell them that they have the wrong equipment for the job...

Many people recognize that there are two parts to some jobs. Low skill grunt work, and high skill finishing.

The key to dealing with homeowners is to be able to tell them; if you want to do the grunt work - I'm willing to guide you; and then I'll do the skill and knowledge part. Then charge what you need to charge to do the job. Be sure to include a clause that if the homeowner cannot keep to a schedule on the grunt work - that allows you to take over that.

Explained that way - some homeowners will like the opportunity to reduce the cost of the job (if only a bit) by doing some of the grunt work - and not object to your doing the boiler install work.

I second (or third, fourth, etc) the concept that you need to have a pricing schedule and contract with the appropriate clauses for installing home owner purchased items - as long as it is reasonable good quality and passes an inspection.

Where I grew up we had a "new junk" dealer who specialized in buying the contents of wrecked semi's - usually sight unseen. His son, a HS clasemate, now runs the place and I occasionally drop in when on that side of the state. You can find almost anything in his store if you drop in on a regular basis. The vast majority of the items are completely undamaged (they scrap anything that is damaged). I could easily see boilers and other things in that store. I do note that many contractors in the area keep in touch as well; and don't think that Tim doesn't know who to call when certain items come in.

Should I be faulted if say next weekend I drop in and find a Vitoden 200 of the right size sitting there in original boxing for a substaintial discount - and then grab it?

That does not mean that I am unwilling to pay a professional a good price to install it.

Lets all think about this smartly. Charge as necessary for your expertise. Let the homeowner save where they can. Have contracts pre-set up for that. I think you will find that there is work to be had - good paying work.

Note that I have no problem for you declining to work with low quality stuff; or declining to work with a someone who wants only to pay you bottom dollar. Working for cheapskates is not worth it.

Perry

Unknown

just one more item please,

When your truck-wreck boiler (with a cracked solder joint on the circuit board) has an intermittant problem that locks out the boiler when you are away, and starts right up every time you restart it, what's the plan for finding the problem?

Noel

Perry_2

Not a problem

Not saying I'd find such a boiler- but I'm sure such things do turn up now and again. And when they do heating professionals may get asked to install them.

Truth be told, though - what you are describing would be rather rare - and just as likely on something that the shipper dropped in loading - or the heating contractor dropped (no one admits these to the customer, or the Mfr - but it happens).

The fact is that I'm told that most "wrecked" merchandise never sees much force put on them. The semi slid into a ditch and rolled. The insurance company pays for the goods and sells them sight unseen. Tim tells me that about 3/4 of the time not a single box shows any sign of damaged in the entire load these days as most things are pallatized and strapped down. It's not like the old days where individual boxes tended to fly here or there.

But if I had a problem like that - simple; just as in any other new boiler with a problem with the circuit board you replace the circuit board.

Since most heating contractors do not have a stockpile of circuit boards and controlers for every boiler they have sold in the last decade (or even this year) - just like everything else it probably has to be ordered and shipped.

And since I saved $1500 + on the boiler (should I have the rare chance of finding one) - I would have no problem just paying for that circuit board.

Of course, specific to me - if this is indeed a cracked solder joint I might see it and fix it. I did solder joint repair on Cray Supercomputer circuit cards for a while as a temp job years ago.

I do have to admit though, I find it hard to believe that a solder joint would crack under most situations. That is usually a sign of poor manufacturing process and a poor joint initially.

Perry

Unknown

you skipped my point.

How did you determine where to look? Which board would you be talking about?

Remember, it won't fail in your presence.

Is there any cost incurred in finding the problem?

WHO'S cost is this?

(This isn't as rare as you might think. Who makes the controls, these days, and where?)

Noel

Perry_2

It's my risk.

Noel:

In a case like this - If I need outside troubleshooting help - or assistance; then that is my risk for the labor.

While I am not a steady customers at this "wrecked" merchandise dealer (I visit a lot more than I purchase - it has to be the "right" something for me to buy) - the few times I have purchased items the warrantee cards were in the box and I was able to send them in . So, it is entirely possible that the parts would be under warrantee.

I do note; I have not read a single boiler warrantee that includes any labor cost for trouble-shooting and repair labor.

So what is really differnt here? If you, or another professional on this forum, sells a boiler - how long do you provide "free" troubleshooting and repair labor once the boiler is up and running? 30 days, 60 days, ect?

I will admit that most electonic things fail in the first week of operation if they are going to fail. Other than that - they usually last years.

Should I stumble on such an item, I figure that my saving a "gob" of money would be worth the small risk of a labor bill should something fail right away.

Note also, that I mentioned above that I have no problem paying for a quality installation from a good professional either.

What I won't do is buy the cheapest boiler from some internet dealer - or from ebay. I just looked at some add - the "most sold" condensing boiler on ebay...

Reminds me a lot about the last time I purchased tires for my small car (my other vehicle is a full sized van). High quality tires (good traction in cold, wet, and snow, and ability to drive at 90 MPH for hours in the summer as well) are no longer made for 13" rims; and I found an internet dealer with some Perrelli tires in stock. But the most commonly sold tires were the cheapest, and then the next cheapest, and those Perrelli's were the least popular. Popularity on the internet is almost always due to to price. Low price tend to mean low quality or less features. So this cheap boiler (and it had the cheapest price I've seen on a condensing boiler of this size) may be the most popular; but how long will it last, how much trouble will it have, etc.

In reality; I'll almost certainly buy a boiler from my local heating guy. But, don't fault me if I - or anyone else - were to actually find a new high quality "right" boiler at a 1/2 (or less) due to some rare event. I'd be stupid to not grab it - and I suspect that a number of contractors would buy it as well so that they could help out that one really nice long time customer who can't quite afford to do it with list cost new equipment.

This thead was about how heating professionals should respond to people who purchase their own boilers.

My advice from a homeowner perspective is to welcome such work as long at it meets some general conditions and a clear agreement document with the right terms in it.

Charge what you need to charge to make a decent profit.

Also, allow homeowners who are willing and able to do grunt work - to do grunt work. How much fun is it to do that grunt work? Isn't there pleanty of other work out there...

Perry

Unknown

I'm with you completely, now

Here's a common response, that differs a little.

I'm not gonna pay labor on it.

Well, I'm not going to eat the labor....


Hey, Let's get MIKEY (the manufacturer) to eat it! He eats ANYTHING!!!

Then my phone rings.....

Noel

hr

DIY radiant

is popular because the internet companies have done an excellent job of marketing to DIYers.

I've been told one of the larger www radiant outfits sell something like 16,000 circs a year! Hard to argue with those numbers. Guess someone is doing well making and selling them pumps, among other things.

I doubt that all of us on this list combined move those kind of numbers.

Plus they advertize in just about every magazine known to man.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Yates (PAH)

Had exactly that situation!

Wasn't from a wreck, however it was HO supplied and there was an intermittent fault from the electronic ignition to ground. Naturally, that never happened while we were on site - after the 30-minute drive one-way. The ho's supplier blamed - guess who - and stated no one else ever had such a problem. BTW, the supplier was a legit distributor for the boiler-brand.

Off to the internet (this site and others) to ask around. Seemed we were seeing a factory defect that plagued many at that time.

The HO refused to pay, the dist refused to pay and the mfgr refused to pay. Following that incident, and several other really odd defective product incidents from big box retail stores, I developed our written policy assigning responsibility onto the material supplier - the HO. They sign, we bill for anything that follows & they've obligated themselves to pay via the document. Let them fight with their supplier - just like we must for products we purchase and supply. You want to play in my world, you get the full monte.

As for having HO's do the tubing grunt work? We've done that on many occasions. However, it's not really just "grunt" work as has been stated here by several who should know better. You can't get to the grunt work stage without proper designs and planning. Next comes the layout & then comes the communication to the grunt labor force to move that design/plan from concept to reality. It's a bit insulting to see posts that denigrate the mental aspects supporting the grunt work. It's not just labor-intensive work that drives up the costs, it's the materials-intensive nature of radiant hydronic installations that meets or exceeds the labor side of the equation.

Just like anything else in life - there's hacks and there's pros. Anyone can get a hack to design and sell product over the net or in a face-to-face meeting. Separating the wheat from the chaff is something the majority of HO's can't possibly do (present company quite possibly excepted). It is truly a buyer beware scenario.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jackchips_2

Well said

as usual, Dave.

Just hard to accept the full monty part. Do you sing also?

Dave Yates (PAH)

Well

Dan has my album - I'm not kidding. I sang with the Thiel College Choir, 2nd chair bass my first year. No instruments - just voices. The most magical moment, for me, was an impromptu concert we did inside the Washington Cathedral while on tour with the choir. One of the clergy discovered what we did and asked us to sing. A divine moment in time as the assembled voices echoed off of the concrete and stone walls/ceilings. The acoustics were heavenly. The hell of it is/was I can't read music - learned everything by ear. Dr. Johnson never knew or he'd have fired me. I held up the music sheets like I was reading the notes - just like the others(G).

As for the "full" monte, it stops at the singing part(G).

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

this isn;t so hard

> Well, I do have a few hundred projects behind me

> that prove that *with assistance*, installing

> pipe is not a $75-$100/hr master plumber kind of

> job. It's grunt work. That's an awful lot of

> saved labor costs if they do that themselves.

> FHA systems are cheap; what's the point of

> DIY'ing it if the contractor can do it fast

> enough to be economical?

>

> Maybe if FHA systems

> were coming in at $40k to $80k installed, you'd

> see more people trying to save some bucks on them

> too, but they aren't, and radiant is. It's labor

> intensive, and labor is something a DIY'er can

> provide cheaply. It's not about radiant being

> *easier*. It's about radiant being 4x or 5x the

> cost!

>

> Now the mech room, as you noted, can be

> a different story, and the boiler is definitely

> off-limits IMHO.

>

> I don't understand what the

> difficulty is with charging for the value you

> provide. Your value is not being a part salesman

> (to the consumer), your value is what's in your

> head and your time as an experienced competant

> professional. So if parts are taken out of the

> equation, charge what you need to charge to

> appropriately value yourself anyway!

>

> What is

> so complicated about that?

Mark Hunt

this isn;t so hard

rob. You and your company sell direct and bypass the companies. You act like you have some sort of membership to a club and habve no problem giving out advise to contractors. What is different from you and home depot? What is different from you and radiantec? I have no respect for you or your advice. Your company exists only to sell direct. Bypass the overpriced contractor. Do not think for one minute that you are in the same boat as we are, you are not. Tell us agian how many hundreds of system you have sold direct to help the homeowner save money and bypas the contractor. Your company is nothing more than an internet diy site. No wonder you take offense when a contractor balks at the way you want business to run.

Plumdog_2

The big F

many rave about how great they are; but I have had a different experience. They will do anything for a buck, including screwing contractors and letting DIY's in the back door.

Wayco Wayne_2

Singing

There's a line in the song T Bone Shuffle by Jesse Collin Young that goes, "Ever since I was a little boy, I've love to sing, I've loved to sing." That line fits me to a Tee. The only part of Church I loved, growing up was the singing of the old Hymns. (my favorite was The Old Rugged Cross) My first clock radio turned me on to the Beach Boys and the big hit of that time Good Vibrations. I'd love to have a recording of the "shower sessions" from back then and my trying to make something like the same sounds as them. Ha! Now I sing with the church choir and love a chance to solo. I sang the Baritone solo of the Fauvre Requiem last year, with orchestral accompianiment. What a rush. Control, focus and joy all rolled up in one. I've also played some coffee houses and the occasional Borders with my Guitar and Keyboards. A little Folk, a little Rock. I still get a little nervous beforehand, but once I start it all about the music. I can't say I've got an album though, Dave.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

I don't think that's fair...

... Rob and his crew offer a very valuable service to the industry by enabling homeowners and contractors alike to install radiant heating systems. Unlike the hacks of the industry,

• NRT actually perform a heat loss calculation
  
• design systems that meet the heat loss w/o issues
  
• work with contractors to get systems installed
  
• educate consumers to the point where they can make more informed decisions.

As a contractor, I would be happy to have NRT at my disposal, particularly as it pretains to complicated systems that require a lot of documentation, thought work, etc. They can come up with more novel design approaches that you or I had not considered because that is what they do for a living...

As for the sales of pre-made systems, I simply ask: Where is the primary market for these kinds of applications? If you cannot compete with system manifolds being shipped from Maine ($$$) then something wonky is going on. More often than not, I bet a lot of contractors who work with NRT love the fact that a lot of the work is being taken out of their hands. It's a time saver.

And it's not as if the homeowner is going to save money. Not up front anyway, because NRT gets paid for its design services. Thus, I doubt that any of the bargain shoppers that try to bypass the contractors are going to shop there either, as NRT will be more expensive than Radiantec or some of the other outfits, because they sell systems that work and because they get paid to design them in the first place.

Brad White_9

I feel

a Hydronic version, a CD of our greatest voices rivaling Pink Floyd's "The Wall", coming on. ("Needs more cowbell!")

Such talent I never knew existed. Great minds, great hands, great voices. Might make a good "for charity" CD.

Waiting for the release of said CD on the Holohan Label.

Paul Rohrs_4

I'm ready

for my Kazoo solo, anytime, tell me when and where. I know there are some wallies out there with their kazoo's.

Regards,

PR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"