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Infrared pics of Ultra Fin and Knight boiler at work (hr)

Sure looks to me like even "thin fin" plates heat the floor MUCH more rapidly than the ultra-fin.

Comments

  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    color pics to boot!

    Th Ultra Fin was a bit to shiney to get a good "view" with the camers. I had some red marking spray paint that I used to try and limit the reflectivity. Probably be better to coat them with a flat black color.

    Also a look at the Lochinvar at work.

    I'm still trying to get the pics over from the Flir software to a JPEG to show you the floor pics under working conditions. These are digital pics of my computer screen. not a very clear pic.

    These pics were within 15 minutes of starting the system from a 50 degree room temperature.

    hot rod
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    ThinFin with Ultra Fin

    I used some 4 foot lengths of Radiant Engineering extruded plates around the big glass perimeter area, just to be safe. Also notice the air leaks around the door weatherstrip and where the insulator must have missed in the corner.

    hot rod

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    pic 015 looks something like one of the "pods" on the 2001 Space Odyssey ship.

    Interesting shots!
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    That sure is a Clear picture as to Whats What.

    thank you ,your contributions are such that they are signifigantly changing the quality of the hydronic heating realm. These things say ,...no, Demand that we bring the work forward into this century. Hot Rod did you invest in the t-50? i read the product lit cover to cover and then investigated the availability of the biggest bang for the with the fanciest effects and found another lacking only the night vision aspect that requires governtment registration that curtails movement of the tool outside of the continental USA.

    i am doing my taxes...Stress...eek...:) now if it looks like i am not penniless at the culmination, i am seriously considering the camera to help in another corner of the Work. Thanks again.
  • Jeff Elston
    Jeff Elston Member Posts: 289
    Very cool err I mean hot

  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    Hot Rod

    If I'm infering the temp readings right, it seems the air temps of 105.6-106.4 are consistent with Macduffco's joist air temp data claims. Did you shoot the floor surface temp? Seems like quite a rapid response in 15 minutes, no?
    Don't quite understand the 95.6 reading. Bottom of the cavity space? I've gone forward promoting the UF's, and have a couple jobs spec'd with UF's. $$ difference vs. plates, mixing stations, and tubing is quite dramatic. Where is this going? Need to look real careful at design strategies,house design & function, budgets, expectations, on future jobs. I've heard it said UF will cover it all. And what about ODR. How will UF track with a boiler reset control? Linear, proportional? What about mod/con's? High end equipment, controls, and elaborate flooring systems can be engineered for precise MRT's and comfort levels. But, could it be this simple with UF's?

    a little dizzying!

    Jed
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Actually

    my infrared gal showed up 1/2 hour earlier than I planned. I had hoped to run it for a good 30- 45 minutes before filming.

    I was a bit surprised at the ramp up speed.

    I ran this all winter on a Lochinvar Knight at 150 fixed with a 15° delta t.

    When I finished the job out I added the OD reset control. The nice feature on the Knight is the adjustable boost feature. Pick a time duration and temperature and it will boost the supply until the load is satisfied. Good cushion to have.

    I will not any data on the OD reset till next season unfortunatly. Job went a lot slower than I had planned.

    I see a lot of good applications for UF. Certainly adding some retro radiant to a fin tube baseboard home would be a no brainer.

    Questionable loads could easily use some transfer plate in conjunction with the UF.

    hot rod

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    re: The Ultra-fin output photo.

    Are the two tubes supply and return from a single joist bay?

    If so, how many more Ultra-fin plates before the return loops back?

    Again if these are supply/return and presuming the extruded plates are attached to the same tube which gets heat first--the plates or the fin?
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Those are really hard questions,

    Mike! :)

    Actually these are 300 foot loops. The UltraFins are staggered in the bay at about 32- 36" apart. Plates are at the outside wall area.

    No question the conduction transfer offered by the ThinFin is most powerful. Quicker to see with the camera and a bit warmer.

    Really the best way to watch this is with the camera in the video mode. That way you can watch things happen in real time. These snap shots are just a point in time, not quite as telling as watching it happen over a period of time.

    They do show the eveness of temperature spread compared to the early IR I showed of staple up and even transfer plates. Direct tube staple up, without plates, is the worse stripe-er.

    The UF tends to provide a nice temperature spread.

    I'd call this installation a combination of UF, ThinFin and suspended tube. Knowing what I know now I would be inclined to go straight UF on the next install, depending on the room loads, of course.

    This job had no problem maintaining temperature even with that week of single digit weather we had this winter. And at fairly low, never above 150 supply temperatures.

    hot rod

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  • Jed_2
    Jed_2 Member Posts: 781
    More Questions

    I understand your ODDT is much higher than northern climates, where the UF's were first introduced. And I notice you used parallel joist loops. How did you arrive at 32-36" parallel spacing? MacDuffco is soon introducing sizing software for parallel tubing installation. Cross joist tubing indicates a maximum of 30" spacing. I wonder what the floor shots would look like with 24" parallel spacing. Wider DT's? Would you then need the Thin Fins? Cost comparison of Thin Fins vs UF's.

    This is very interesting, Hot Rod, and I thank you for the time and effort you put into this experiment. True test conditions will have to wait for the next heating season, but, what you have done so far should have a tendency to sway the nay sayers. Like I said before, can it be this simple?

    Jed
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    with more answers

    I'm just so use to doing dual tubes per joist bay, it doesn't cost that much more tube and gives you more emitter potential.

    This job was all Wirsbo MultiCor which would not thread that easily as the UF installation manual shows. Too much kink potential.

    A 12 X 13 foot room would take about 45 drilled holes with the thread method. Takes me 9 holes down one end with the dual tube method. And easier to handle working alone. Threading 300 footers is a trip!

    We did do one small bedroom with the tubes running perpendicular. Basically you are swapping hole drilling for pex length, when you think about it.

    I used the 32" because that is what code around here requires for hanger spacing with pex :) I placed the UF right next to the hanger to keep it in the correct place.

    Would I do it again? Sure, depending on the load calcs and how, supplementing with some transfer plates to keep the operating temperatures of a Mod con, looked in the design program.

    Ultra Fin is to suspended tube what transfer plates are to staple up. Just leveraging aluminum to increase transfer.

    Price wise.... with a bit more experience I could fine tune the UF installation procedure. The UF installation video sure does make it look fast and easy. Experience adds a lot to any installation task :)

    hot rod

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  • Tom_35
    Tom_35 Member Posts: 265
    Onix tubing

    Hot Rod,

    Have you got any filming on the Onix installations? I'm assuming that Watts still states that no plates are needed, so I was wondering about the striping issues with it.

    Tom Atchley
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