Okay plumbers, have at it

rick in Alaska

John, what I have found is that if the toilet backs up into the bowl only,and not into the tub, this would tell me it most likely is just plugged in the toilet and not the mainline. The best way to proceed is to check the top of the trap with a mirror to see if there are any obstructions visible. If not,I will pull the toilet and clean out the obstruction from the bottom of the trap.
The absolute best advice I can give you is to never use a snake in your toilet. I have had two commercial toilets break when the auger flipped around and smacked the inside of the trap.
Also, most of the time when you auger or plunge, it turns out to be a temporary fix.
Bite the bullet and pull it if needed.
Rick in Alaska

John R. Hall

Toilet problem

Yes, the neophyte is back with another question from the mind of an anti-DIYer (me).

When we moved into our new home a few months ago I noticed that one of the toilets had been acting erractically (then and now). It seems that about every 7th or 8th flush, the toilet backs up, regardless of what is being flushed down. A simple plunge fixes the problem but this is very annoying.

Any ideas what would cause this?

Brad White_51

Less fiber in your diet?

Ted_9

new

how new?

How's the pitch in the pipe?

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John R. Hall

Not new

The house is not new nor is the toilet. Not sure about the pitch unless I crawl back under the house.

And thanks for the humor but I need an answer with more substance (pardon the pun).

[Deleted User]

4 letters...

PF II. THat stands for Power FLush 2. Put one of them tanks on ANY terlet and you have an instant turd surfer. Guaranteed.

One thing to look for is residual bowl water standing level. If the bowl keeps getting lower and lower with each flush, eventually it will not siphon empty and plug up. It is usually a simple matter of the refill tube that refills the bowl having come out of place.

I'm presuming that this is a 3.5 GPF or less water closet. Low water toilets are a pain in the butt. Glad I don't HAVE to do plumbing any more:-)

ME

singh

check

1- proper pitch

2- proper venting

3- under rim holes are clogged, not
allowing enough water to fill bowl. Iron out flushed thru the tank
can clean those holes.


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hr

Sounds like

a partial blockage downstream somewhere.

If all else fails have a plumber send a camera down. Could be a test disc or other debris in the line.

Most all the low flush WC should be flushable these days. they have had plenty of practice designing and building them

One of the trade mags has a good low flush article this month.

hot rod

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clammy

pull the bowl

First snake the bowl and if it further persist pull the bowl and check the wax seal it may be a wax seal with the plastic collor which may have something hung up on it ,in some case it may just be build up of years of you know what .On another note while in germany many years ago i had the pleasure of being at a friends apartment when the plumbers came and did there yearly yeah yearly scheledged snaking of the main waste stack ,also the chimmet guy came and inspected the chimmey and the bosch gas fired wall hung water heater .May be this something plumbers should set up and do here it would probalby elimate most sewer back up and emercency snaking on weekend and create more service work .Peace and good luck clammy

Dave Yates (PAH)

John (dual meaning!)

So da John isn't flushing for John, but only sometimes? Well, I've seen that a few too many times pal. One that really frustrated me, was a situation exactly like yours. I was a service tech at the time and had been dispatched to dispatch the problem. Use of my handy closet auger seemed to resolve the issue and, as I learned to do, I "loaded" the bowl with great wads of bung-wad to simulate a load (no pun intended that time!). End of problemo? No & my boss was less than thrilled. Back I go and, once again, da augering does da trick.

But now I'm suspicious - so off da truck comes my trusty inspection mirror on a telescoping wand. The mirror's adjustable, so once the proper angle is found, a flashlight will reflect a beam to illuminate the darkened recess - allowing you to see up to the crown weir of da trap. Funny how pencils, combs, toothbrushes, bank bag - from a theft, hypodermic needle - drug addicts apartment, weeble-wobbles, bristle blocks, evil knievel motorcycles and (blushing customers) vegetables - "the neighbor's kids must have done that" - get hung up there. If that's the case, you might be able to hook the offending object with a coat-hangar.

On the other hand, my service call from hell looked like it was resolved. But, suspicions being raised caused me to raise the WC off of its flange and flip it upside-down to do a proctology-like exam on its outlet. The lid must be removed first as must all water! Lo & behold the horn's outlet diameter was just the right size to stop the mason-jar lid (flat metal lid with a rubber seal around its perimeter) from passing through. The final; passage before exiting through the horn, had a continued recess, which kind of formed a T. Behind that stinking lid, there was a golf ball! Augering the WC knocked the lid upright and offset it into the dead-end of the T - trapping the golf ball! Every so often, the dang thing would flop down - nicely sealing the outlet of the T and settling into the horn just enough that it wouldn't budge.

Getting the offending lid out of the WC was a good deal harder than the golf ball, which seemed quite delighted to exit from that water hazard! Getting an oversized object out of a WC when needle-nose pliers or fingers can't effectively squeeze or reshape the dang thing requires you to juggle the WC and twist it about until you can convince the object to reverse its original course and send it back through the trap to the bowl. A very satisfying rattle to be heard indeed.

While you're down there, replacing the closet gasket, bolts and supply tube are warranted.

Good luck & I'd like to see the pictures of you juggling that WC in The News(G).

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Constantin

Reminds me of a story from Nigel Calder...

... about the need to teach kids that anything other than toilet paper and their personal waste that nothing may be put in the toilet. Boat toilets have even smaller passages and do not generally benefit from power flushes and the like... 1.5" hand-pumped goodness and all that.

Mr. Calder had to take his (full) toilet/pump completely apart when his kid decided to drop a piece of coconut in the bowl...

John Shea

Blue Goo

I wouldn't have believed it if not for first-hand experience:

Two commodes I recently troubleshooted with the same problem. Sometimes they flushed, sometimes they didn't.

Turns out, both of them had those 'self-cleaning' tablets or cakes or whatever you call them, in the tank. Remove the cakes (with rubber gloves on cause they stain bad) and give it a dozen or so flushes.... problem disappeared.

I read that the cakes change the chemistry (I believe particularly the density) of the water... and of course, the vortex' design was calculated with a certain 'chemistry of water' in mind.

Again, I never would have believed it if I didn't 'see' it.

Here's a good informational site on toilets:

THE BLUE GOO STORY aka The Lazy Flush

Hope this helps you... or someone.

Cliff Brady

Clogged bottom jet?

I had one with a similar frequency of under flushing that turned out to have sediment (from the bowl itself) clogging the jet at the bottom front of the bowl. Using my pinky or a small stick would loosen the sediment during a clean flush and would increase the flow into the trap enough for reliable flushing.

John R. Hall

You guys are awesome

Thanks!

Now let the April Fool's jokes begin.

Guy_6

toilet

I had a similar problem in my own home. After questioning the ENTIRE family if anything suspiscious may have been sent down (a resounding NO), I was forced to remove the bowl and inspect it from below. Lo and behold, a plastic sleeve from a feminine product was wedged across the opening. Apparently it would wobble about and change the flushes, works this time, won't the next.

"But it says flushable....." I didn't argue, just informed...

Brad White_51

OK, seriously now....

Lessons Learned:

I had a toilet which did much the same thing, would flush sometimes and not others. I snaked it (only once, my bad), it would work better for a while then go back to bad behavior. So I chucked it and installed a Toto.

When I broke up the former Porcelain Throne, there was a familiar looking mass in the ball pass: Q-Tips. (Was not me!)

Like pick-up sticks, they gathered and crossed to clog anew. All the snake did was rearrange them whereupon it redeployed into an impenetrable mesh. Who knew? Did I feel stupid...

Follow-up story, apporopos of nothing:

I bleached the bejeezus out of the whole thing and put it out in the trash. They refused to take it, I suppose I can understand why, but it was by that time quite "sanitized for your protection". After three weeks I got the idea. And another idea:

In Boston during snow storms there is a tradition that if you shovel out your parking space you mark it with a barrel, traffic cones, an old couch... preserving your sweat equity.

The Mayor took exception to this transient territoriality and announced that any furniture, cones or other devices found preserving parking spaces would be hauled off as trash. Now, I have off-street parking, but that did not stop me from marking a nearby spot... with the toilet. Problem solved.

[Deleted User]

Ingenious!

Making the system work FOR you instead of AGAINST you. What a novel concept!

Here in the Mile High City, our water department has a potty recycling program. They take all the "used" toilets displace by low water toilets and take them out to a local reservoir (irrigation only) and deep six them in a certain area, building habitat for the bottom dwelling fish.

At one time, they were grinding them up and mixing the ashes with asphalt, but after a few severely cut tires, that practice came to a hault.

ME

[Deleted User]

Cotton ponies...

AKA cotton sewer rats.

Did you get a DNA sample...:-)

WHen you live in a house FULL of women, you find them in a hurry. I taught all my women early not to do so, but thier visiting friend never had any formal "Plumber" potty training, and...you get the gist.

Funny how emberrased the lady of the house use to get when I was in the service biz, and would occasionaly fish one out of a drain. Like us plumbers don't know what they're doing with them:-)

We have a standing rule in ALL the Eatherton households. The only thing that goes in the toilet is human waste and toilet paper. All other gets appropriately wrapped and disposed of through the solid waste stream...

Same thing applies to the garbage disposal. The only garbage that gets ground is what little bit is still on the dish after cleaning it off in the trash. Sure keeps the drains flowing great.

Now, if I could just train those darned tree roots to stay away from my sewer...

ME

Garret

I'll enthusiastically second the Toto.

We put in one of their G-Max toilets when we remodeled our bath... works a charm. In three years, I think it's backed up once.

Here's another review:
http://www.terrylove.com/wwwboard/messages2/42891.html

Weezbo

a two foot tall kid playing cowboys and indians ?

or War with his favorite plastic army guys and assorted tanks jets and helicopters?

lined around the seat ,and forcing the offending side to DIE by drowning?

Steamhead (in transit)

I had one at a neighbor's

one of the original Kohler 1.6 units with the "blowout" design. It never had flushed quite right and finally would hardly flush at all. When I pulled it, I found it was installed on an offset flange and the gasket had that plastic sleeve with an orifice on the bottom that was obviously designed for a concentric flange. This combination reduced the opening about 50%, allowing enough buildup to make it unusable.

So I cleaned everything out, and when I put it together I cut out part of the orifice in the gasket sleeve. I positioned the remainder over the offset portion of the flange to act as a deflector. Problem solved. BTW, we avoid using this type of gasket on 1.6 toilets on concentric flanges too, they can slow down the outward flow enough that the bowl won't clear.

We just got one of the new Gerber "Viper" toilets and put it in the shop, after having seen it demonstrated flushing golf balls at a PHCC show. I like the fact that it uses standard tank parts which we can repair from our usual stock. So far, we haven't been able to stop it up. We also have a ToTo G-max "Drake" at the shop and haven't been able to stop that one up either, but we're still trying on both of them......

A bit of trivia: The name "ToTo" was not stolen from "The Wizard of Oz". Rather, it is an acronym for "Toyo Touki" which is Japanese for "Eastern Sea Pottery". That's why I capitalized the second T in ToTo. This is according to The Lovely Naoko, who never thought she'd have to answer such a question ;-) .



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Guy_6

Stuff

A friend just told me of his toilet woes the other day. The call that he got from home was that she could not flush. It seems that SOMEONE decided that the pot would be a great way to dispose of potpourri (wood)chips. The flush was apparently not a total success and the chips floated up into the trap, where they swelled into an ugly mass. Once he determined what that STUFF he was augering from the trap was, the honesty came forth.
Have any of you noticed that after a certain period in the trades, little actually surprises you? You even stop asking "Why would someone do that?".

Larry (from OSHA)

since the topic floated to the top

I'v been meaning to ask if anyone has a fix for an American Standard Champion with the exceedingly annoying CLUNK from the super duper flush tower? It flushes great, but not quiet like the Toto toilets that we put in our other bathrooms. Has anyone tried to modify one with a flapper from a Toto? At least it's not in the master bath.

GusHerb

Since were talkin plumbing here what could go wrong with a under the basement floor sewage main put in in the early 1900s that was then replaced by a above the floor main in the 50s.

Brad White_51

Settlement, tree roots

a host of things.

Building settlement would tend to affect the older VTC (vitreous clay tile) in and of itself and the joints. CI, mostly at the joints. Tree roots will find them also even under buildings.

If disconnected entirely and no longer active ought not be an issue.

GusHerb

its still active but not for solid waste it use to drain grease(after the new main was installed) when the space use to be a restuarant.

scrook_2

Boston snow parking

Best part of the mayor violating this Bostonian tradition, dating almost to the founding of the city in 1620 -- well parhaps more recently than that, the auto being a 20th cehntury convenieence -- was that as soon as it was announced any "markers" would be hauled away as trash, all sorts of old items started showing up, out of cellars and attics, in shoveled spaces! HE HE!

Plumdog_2

Rule # 1

never put grease down the drain. I went to one of my remodel jobs once; and outside was a burned, half melted range with microwave top.(a nice one). Homeowner says he was MELTING GREASE on the stove so he could pour it down the drain; and forgot the burner was on. I won't say what this guy does for a living, but if you knew you would probably not fly on United anymore.

GusHerb

ScottMP

I had an elderly

nieghbor who enjoyed his drink. He would get sauced and then get sick. Well he got coughing so bad he coughed his dentures into the bowl and then flushed it.

I came over and pulled the toilet and there they where caught in the horn of the bowl. I took them out with my channellock and he PUT THEM IN THE SINK WITH THE HOT WATER GOING.

As I put the bowl back I kept thinking

" Nah he won't "

" no way he would'nt "

" OHMYGAWD "

YUP popped em right back in.

Scott

"

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mtfallsmikey

Here's my take....

and 2 cents from a plumber who has almost seen it all...older low-flush unit, undersized passageway,high material volume (P.C. explaination!)and....a drain from the toilet with possibly TOO MUCH PITCH!!..sounds weird,eh? But, you have to remember..too much pitch on a drain on a 1.6 can cause the water / material to separate,leaving the material to remain lodged in the pipe. Or it can be a bad pour from the factory. In the case of the A-S Champion mentioned with the noise, please don't try to graft a flapper or modify it. I've conducted my own science fair projects on mine, but to no avail. The tower in the Champion is a remake of a flush valve used by A-S in the 50's, but with a larger opening at the bottom. The water goes out of the tank quicker,thus causing the "thunk" when it seats.

singh

ok here's another story

Way back when I was a young helper, Myself and a lead went on a service call.
You guessed it right, backed up toilet.
But of course it was lunch time, and there was a pizza joint on the way.
After a nice warm slice with the appropiate topping and a soda, hi ho its off to work we go. You see where this is going.
We get to the six story building, in college point, queens , no elevator
, so I grab the necessary implements to do the job, or so I'm told. One of the tools included this funny looking thing called a toilet auger. I had a total of three weeks on the job, never seen such a device before, let alone know how to use one.
On the ascent up the stairs, on this particular warm and muggy day, the air became thick and odiforous. We get to the top floor, knock on the door. A nice elderly man opens the door, and BAM! it hits you. We both stumble back three or four steps. Red 5 we're going in. The lead tech , Buddy, took one look at the toilet, as tears started to roll down his eyes, from the burning sting, and told the man, no way are we cleaning this! It was full to the rim.
The old man began to squeal, I been without for a week you got to help me!
So Buddy says If you can get someone to clean it up a little maybe. Just then the old man goes to the kitchen ,comes back with a garbage can, and begins scooping up the materials, bare handed.
Once that crust was broken, man oh man. Buddy runs out into the hallway , puking and dry heaving all the way there. Quick note about Buddy, picture a big dude, Harley davidson tee shirt, tattoos all over, tough right. Nope he met his match. Devan, he says to me. Go in thar' and clean it out. In between pants I say, Buddy, I don't know what to do! So he shows me a quick demo on how to use a toilet auger, as he running down the stairs , and out the door. I pick up a dusk mask from the truck, no goggle, no gloves, shucks. Go back up the stairs ,go in the apartment, In twenty seconds, I figured out how to use the tool. All the while holding my breath. Flush once, Nice. Goodbye, no ticket to sign.

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Reed

To rescue a friends parents

I went to there apt. to fix a sometimes slow flushing or no flushing toilet. This was before low water consumption toilets came out on the market. So I'm climbing the stairs in this four story walk up in Flushing Queens with my plunger and my auger thinking, It's Sunday, and I am not in the mood to clear a possible messy toilet stoppage. When I finally see the toilet I am happy to see that it is clean. Flush it about 5 times and it goes down slow and on the sixth time it doesn't go down at all. Plung and it goes right down. So I put the auger down and with the luckiest grab ever I pull out a ball point pen. Flush another five times with wads of TP and all is well. I show my buddies parents what the problem was his dad screams at the mom " I told you not to do those damn crosswords on the thrown." To this day they are still married and all is well.

Steamhead (in transit)

That was the A-S N3055 flush valve

I still see a lot of them, they work perfectly after I replace the seal. But it didn't come out until 1960 or so, and was superseded by the #5 "tilting bucket" flush valve about 1964. I think Mansfield cribbed the N3055 design for their "Watersaver" flush valve that came out in the late 1960s and is still used today in a low-flush version.

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Steamhead (in transit)

After that call

you could have called the old guy "Magnum, P.U."! :-0

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Anthony Menafro

Siphon Jet

Normally, when a problem like that occurs, I find that the siphon jet(the small hole at the bottom of the toilet) gets caked up over the years and doesn't allow the flush to get it's Kick Start. I usually use a wire hanger that I've taken apart and clear that jet out. Then I tell the customer that I'll be back to do that again in another ten years.

Anthony Menafro

RICK_40

I come home after working on ac calls and its hot outside and my daughter 2 mentioned dinosaur and toilet .had to pull toilet and dinosuar out .nice interesting day