Car Wash Snowmelt

Weezbo

0014!:)))) WHat?! :) wow!:)) thanks:) would a 003 have worked?

What a riot Paul :) yah i see how the math is being figured:) i just divided by 5 and it came up pretty close to 3 :))

i really was liking your belimo valves and all and thinking 'wow !that must have been real buzy' and thinking 'it sure looks good' and then you come up with 'Heres some of the fun things the guys speced in here...:) i been feeling exhausted for quite a While and your insider info gave me a jolt and i laughed an then i felt a blast of stress lift off me like an elephant just took his foot off my back:) Thanks*~/:)

let me share, today, Randy Nickolas from Venmar, dropped in to give a class on EQ and the new Venmars, at the end of the class one of my buddies picks up the last sandwich left over from lunch, another of my buddies says "you must be hungry"

Scott says" What are you Talking about?"
"I work with Bill! This is the first time he has let me have anything to eat! "

"This IS my vacation!"

Somedays things are just that good :)

then this other guy asks me "well you guys have Heat in that rough-in you just finished right?"

"Well, if you move round fast enough,Lets just say its Naturally Ventilated" :)

Paul Rohrs

started thtis system up today

Let me start this post by assuring you that I did my best to try to upsell the End-User and engineer on a condensing boiler. No Dice.

Matt J had his work cut out for him on this new carwash snowmelt install. There was not a great deal of room in here. The architects and engineers specified a lot of equipment. Atmospheric boiler, buffer tank, chemical pot-feeder, 3-way mixing valve for heat-timer RSM control, 5/8 tubing, balancing manifolds for each of the single loops installed on the entrance and exit of the carwash,… Does anyone see the anything missing? How about some form of boiler protection for the atmospheric boiler. Sheesh! We finally got an approval from the job superintendent for the change-order. We added a simple Wirsbo Promix 101 and 3-way proportional mixing valve (in set point mode) to set the primary loop temp, but more importantly, to ensure minimum inlet temp of 140F.

It was such a small space; it was hard to get it in the pictures. Matt built a strut frame that sits over the buffer tank which is in series with the boiler loop. Primary loop branches off and feeds the 3-way mixing valve being controlled by the RSM. Has anyone ever read the instructions for the RSM? Not a literary masterpiece, but the control is simple, affordable, and gets the job done.

We remote mounted the snowmelt manifolds in the carwash bay. ¾” Wirsbo Multicor was used as our S/R piping. Matt makes it look soooo nice. Matt grabbed his magnahelic and double checked the gas pressures. This is a nice little Lochinvar Solution boiler. (2-stage firing, integral combustible floor shield, I field wired the Manual Reset High Limit for CSD-1) I am fond of this little atmospheric boiler, but I never specify atmospheric any more, the HO has to request them. Anyway, the IOM states that the boiler is (paraphrasing) “Dialed-in” at the factory and no adjustments should be needed. Well, the reading was just barely enough to satisfy the “Low-Fire” requirements. Matt adjusted it to the proper inches of WC for High-Fire operation.

I have a CAD drawing at work that I will add in the morning.

Regards,

PR


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Weezbo

That seems like a very tight Squeeze:)

thats alot going on i bet the conversation started out...''dont worry,you are going to have alot of space in the mechanical room"....:)

Paul Rohrs

Tomorrow

I am going to grab a picture of where they place the refrigerator sized air-compressor.

Not a lot of room, so Matt tucked the expansion tank under the strut support arm below the boiler. (Follow the 1/2" multicor)

Pumps were waaaaayyyy oversized for the job. The 75,000 btu Lochinvar is being fed by a Taco 0013. The single snowmelt zone with a cumulative 400' of 5/8 tubing is being fed by a Taco 0014.

It is melting snow to beat the band, but you can imagine with that velocity, we have some pretty narrow delta T's. My only long term concern is velocity corrosion. We did not get approval to change the engineers spec on the circulators.

Better days.

Paul

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Paul Rohrs

A real head scratcher...

even with the (almost) 40% proplyene-glycol solution, a 007 would have got this done.

My thinking, if a 007 is good, then a 0014 is twice as good.

Hooray for math!

Paul

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Constantin

Very nice!

I like the install a lot. Like Mr. Ron Jr., this is another closet install that has been asked to do far more than one would hope... I'll also bet that it was an architect that gave you guys the 3x3 area to install all this stuff into.

Rant on: Architects should be forced to work in all the trades they affect for 3 months as flunkies so that they'll get an appreciation for the trouble they specify ... rant off.

Yet another engineer being asked to specify something he doesn't know anything about, it seems. Had it happen in hydraulics once (and that was their main line of business!), saw it recently on a Vitola with a LLH. Sure, it won't hurt the Vitola, but what's the point?

Anyway, congrats on the neat install. I hope you put your concerns in writing so that there is a paper trail back to the real culprits in case erosion or bad performance rears its head. I do have one question though... on the second picture (which seems to focus on the floor piping), I seem to see a shutoff valve that doesn't seem to be attached to anything, yet hovering just above the ground. Is this a drain valve?

Paul Rohrs_4

Picture 4169?

That is our supply and return piping. We use the ballvalve type boiler drains to help on the purge and fill. I HATE fighting airlock problems. I will gladly spend the extra $15.00 in materials to save hours of air purging issues. We actually (Successfully) filled and purged this system from the mechanical room. At the end of purge/fill, we put on hose caps.

Attached is the revised drawing after adding the 3-way mix for boiler protection.

Regards,

PR

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hr

Surprisingly

those direct to boiler snowmelts seem to work and last! Raypack sold that Thawmaster Pack through carwash distribuitors for years. There are a handful in my area with 15 years plus on them!

Not my favorite approch either, and I have found dollar for dollar you can upgrade to a mod con for near the same money as "protecting" a non condensor (parts and labor) Plus you take that nasty combustion air requirement out of a typically small mechanical room, when you go con. And show the efficiency boost to boot.

hot rod

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Constantin

This is the valve I meant...

See the attached picture, it's been circled in red. It almost looks like an overflow/draindown valve but it seems to be floating right above the floor. Naturally, that may be the camera angle/flash playing tricks on me.

[Deleted User]

Looks like..

5 pounds of sugar in a 2 pound bag to me... AND as an ADDED bonus, it CAN be worked on at a later date if needed.

What a concept.

Kudos to the Biggerstaff crew.

ME

Paul Rohrs_4

Thanks

for the kind words all.

Constantin,

That valve is off of the bottom of the chemical "pot-feeder". It was added only as per recommended installation
instructions from the manufacturer. Seems a waste to me as well.

Regards,

PR

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[Deleted User]

No kidding...

Every architect and enginner should be required to work a minimum of 4 years in the field prior to being given their shingle. They'd have a much better appreciation of what its like tryiing to fit 5 pounds of hard cheese into a 2 pound round bag with three corners!

I was sitting in a meeting last week with the HOer's, a team (4) of architects, mechancial engineer, builder, owners consultant and my own hydronic/geo installation team explaining to the "other side" of the table why it was that we needed another mechanical room in the basement. This is a 20K square foot home, that was originally configured with roof top compressor condensing units that we change to GSHP and put in the basment based on the M.E.'s noise abatement requirements.

As I politely explained, the "existing" mechanical room was barely large enough to handle the base equipment required in the first place. I could see the architectural team squirming in their chairs, when the M.E. spoke up and said "That mechanical room was too small to begin with. I concur with their recommendation for an additional mechnical room". THANK YOU SIR!

20,000 square feet for 4 people, and they're complaining about me wanting to take up an additional few hundred square feet to make the service mans life a little easier... GIVE US A BREAK!! Then, the architect speaks up and says the Sound/Light/Security guy wants around 1,200 square feet for all HIS equipment, to which I jokingly replied, "Oh, sure give him 1200 square feet, but cram me and all of my equipment into a closet...." You could have heard a pin drop in the room... "Just KIDDING!!" you then heard a BIG sigh of relief. The GC, whom I hope to entertain doing business with in the future stopped me in the hallway afterwards and told me I had more cajones then any contractor he'd ever worked with, and that he looked forward to working with me on this project. Guess that's a good indicator. I'll believe it when I see the signature on the contract...

ME

Constantin

Sounds like...

... a cinema / conference center in the making. 1,200 sq ft for lighting controls? Wow!

Our architect wanted to set aside 64ft² for a 4 ton air handler, the Vitola, the 300 gallon sprinkler tank, the Vitocell, and all the fixings. Maybe even the Roth tanks were supposed to go there...

I once saw a rather large (6000ft²+) architect house, with GSHPs and all sorts of other fun toys in a underground "room", maybe 12x12. This room was a nuclear submarine pipe-fitters dream come true, but just the engineering required to fit all that stuff in the little space was probably 2x more expensive than making the room 2x larger and giving the utilities the space they deserve if servicing the stuff becomes a consideration.

Nevermind giving service personell the opportunity to work while standing up instead of playing hunchback of Notre Dame.

Anyway, every profession has its hacks, inexperienced, etc. Whether you have a sheepskin to prove that you went to school and perhaps passed a couple of exams means less in the real world than the ability to grasp what was taught, the ability to educate yourself further, etc.

Matt J._2

10 pounds in a 5 pound bag

Thanks for the kind words about the work. Paul and I always seem to be battling the same thing that I guess everyone else has to battle, NO ROOM!!!! I guess after all these years I've grown use to it. Beleive me it make your mind work over time on how to install it, make it service friendly and look decent. I don't know what I would do if I was told I had all the room I needed. It probably would be all cramed in a small space. After all we have all heard that your equipment is take up good useable space or probably in commercial space , your taking billable floor space. Some times ya just half to stand your ground! What Paul also didn't mention was that this very tiny room is a 75,000BTU forced air hanging heater. Wonder how much that run in aheating season. Budget! Budget! Budget! Can't install a condensing boiler but can afford to blow money on a heater of this size to heat acracker box! Alright I'll get off my box now. Thanks for the input guy's. Have a good one!! Matt J. Biggerstaff's