Snowmelt Insulation Test Results (ME)

hvacsale

Nice Job ME!

> This was a comparison of off shelf insulation

> components, not insulated versus non insulated.

> Sorry. Maybe next job.

>

> ME

hvacsale

Nice Job ME!

Thanks for taking the time to collect and post this info! I was surprised by the Insul-Tarp numbers. Christian makes a very good point in a possibility of what's going on. I hope you will continue to update us as Old Man Winter continues. What area of CO was this installed in? My brother lives in Denver and tells me that even though they will often get several inches of snowfall overnight, it typically melts by noon. This leads me to believe that the ground temp stays at or near freezing there unlike up in those beautiful mountains where I can go hiking in snow in late May with no problem. :-)

Keep up the good work!

[Deleted User]

Steve...

It's in Castle Rock, which is about 45 minutes south of Denver proper.

"tis true, snow doesn't last on the ground around here much, but it's more a factor of solar radiation melting it then it is ground temps. There are some places around here that get a build up of permafrost on the north sides of buildings that lasts into April. Most of the drives/sidewalks that we do face north, or are over shadowed by the monster mansions near them, such is the case at this house. That, compounded by the fact that its a pretty steep hill with a couple of curves in it made the builder suggest snowmelt to the owner. All told, we installed about 12,000 square feet of snowmelt on this project. Not positive, but I think its a residential record or at least 2nd place for the company.

ME

ScottMP

The Turkey speaks

I am a little confused by the numbers and Christians interpetation.

If the Insultarp is loosing so much of its heat to the ground, would'nt the surface number be much lower in the begining ? Would,nt the numbers show a delay as the downward loss slows the surface temp. ? I understand the mass of the the ground helping the surface temperature climb, but each slab getting the same amount of btu's there should be a huge loss to the surface or delay as the ground sucks up the heat from that panel. Both lines run fairly paralel to each other and I don't see a delay in surface temp. ??

Scott

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hvacsale

12000 square feet snowmelt

> It's in Castle Rock, which is about 45 minutes

> south of Denver proper.

>

> "tis true, snow

> doesn't last on the ground around here much, but

> it's more a factor of solar radiation melting it

> then it is ground temps. There are some places

> around here that get a build up of permafrost on

> the north sides of buildings that lasts into

> April. Most of the drives/sidewalks that we do

> face north, or are over shadowed by the monster

> mansions near them, such is the case at this

> house. That, compounded by the fact that its a

> pretty steep hill with a couple of curves in it

> made the builder suggest snowmelt to the owner.

> All told, we installed about 12,000 square feet

> of snowmelt on this project. Not positive, but I

> think its a residential record or at least 2nd

> place for the company.

>

> ME

[Deleted User]

Gobble.......Gobble.

Scott, I just did get a chance to look at the whole run for the Insultarp, and Houston,I think we have a problem.

Either this stuff is thermic (generates its own heat) or I have a sensor anomalie. I suspect the latter. Gonna have to throw that data out I'm afraid. :-(

I meet with the HOer's this coming Monday for HO101. I'm going to offer him some free service on his boilers in trade for additional data collection. We'll see if he'll bite. If he does, I replace the sensors for that particular batch and reinstall the data loggers.

As they say on the radio, "Schmidt happens..."

Merry Christmas.

ME

PS, I've added an attachment showing the discrepency. I included a .bmp extension which takes a lot longer to load but had better clarity than JPG. You can see the anomoly REAL clearly. Such is the nature of research. Jus when you think you have a handle on it, you find out otherwise:-)

ME

[Deleted User]

Another tell tale sign of insulation performance.....

If you look at the chart with all of the below insulation sensors for the full sample period, you can see the influence that the OSA has. I suspect that there is a LARGE influence of night sky reradiation here, but you can see the trend of all the sensors, and again, the XPS holds its ground in comparison to the other sample.

As has been said before, there are a million interpretations of this data possible...

So many numbers, so LITTLE time:-)

Here's a copy of the above insulation sensors and the coresponding OSA and Slab Surface sensors. It would appear that there may be an anomalie as it pertains to he sensor for The Barrier, but who knows. I'll replace it as well.

TTFN

ME

jp_2

surface temp not important!

we really do not care what the surface temps are HERE, or the temps just above the insulation.

the big interest is ground temps, higher ground temp lowers available energy to the surface, theres no other solution.
so I am looking at ground temps only. if heat isn't going into the ground it has only one other direction, up!

I think a control can almost be extrapolated by looking at the insulations as they get thinner.

jp_2

un refutable test

best test hands down. with a little snow, use a camcorder with stop action. record the melting process, areas to melt first have the best insulating properties underneath.

assuming a litght snow with no drifting. of course you have to take into account the piping layout.

[Deleted User]

We HAVE the technology...

My brother has a digital cam corder that we've used on a major horse barn project. I'll see if I can borrow if and see what we can see.

ME

Brian (Tankless)

NOW it's getting interesting.

I was so gung-ho about the Insultarp readings, but now I suspect there is an upper sensor problem in that particular section.

I suppose (concurring with other posters) that the best way to decide which insulation performed best, is to read both inlet & outlet temps of the individual sections. And calculate BTU's used (absorbed).

Great stuff, Mark. I hope the HO allows you to continue monitoring.

Brian, in rapidly freezing Swampland.

[Deleted User]

Hey Swampy!

That kind of weather sucks if you're not used/ready for it.


Here's a link to an article I wrote about dealing with freezing weather.

http://www.phccweb.org/newsroom/NewsItem.cfm?ContentItemID=658

Enjoy and keep warm.

ME