Gas burner full of soot

Weezbo

John_104

Burner full of SOOT

Hi ,

I have a gas burner that was Full of soot twice last winter. I am guessing it is because my Tennent caulked all of Basement windows shut tight and it was not getting enough oxygen?? Do you know if there is some guide or a way for me to Install some pipe or soimething in order to vent in and provide moe oxygen to the burner?

Thanks so Much!

-john

Dingo

Yes ...

There are planty of ways .... fortunately they all start with asking you to call in a professional. He will do some necessary tests and give you a few options.

This is not something you should be messing with yourself

Jim Davis_3

If a burner is not getting enough oxygen then odds are it is not venting either. If it is sooting it is making high levels of carbon monoxide which can be poisoning the occupants. If combustion air is not the real problem, having someone add it could make things worse. This problem needs to be diagnosed with a combustion analyzer asap!

John_105

Burner full of soot

Are there some qualified persons in the Boston Area in this forum who could help me out? I am in Somerville. But I would like to have a professional who would be very comfortable with giving a serious lecture to my tennents as well... After all, they have an eight year old daughter. I explained that the boiler was full of soot because my windows were all caulked shut. As soon as the problem was noticed I put in a CO detector.. I since opened the windows and left one open in my private room. The tennents found it open recently and resealed all the windows again...

ScottMP

John

Leaving oyur windows open all winter is not the answer. Providing sufficient combustion air IS.

I am sure there is someone on this board ( try the Find A Contractor menu on the left ) that will be able to help you.

It can be done by either a mechanical device or a duct installed to allow air into the mechanical room. This should be taken care of quickly.

Scott

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Empire_2

Plastic Bag

I have only see 1 new build structure that was so tight that it was detrimental to the combustion process. Not saying that this is the case, but Tell tennants to stoip altering the building or get out!!!. 2). Before jumpime to comb. air problems,...Has the boiler been cleaned recently? 2/5 10 years?.. See my point? no disrespect intended. Call the pro as stated above. This is the only way to actually know what the problem is. Good luck Mike T...

John_105

burner full of soot Please Help..

I called a couple of numbers from the side... these guys are imedaitely telling me that everything needs to be brushed out and you need a fan put in . The Fan and metal pipes are about 5 to 6 hundred plus a hundred for ellectrical work, That does not include the cleaning... blah blah blah... I will have to look at it... blah..

The problem I have with this now is that the last two plumbers I had do some work did a terrible job. One just put in a water heater that looks like the leaning tower of pisa.. the other one was a total mess..

none of them sound as profesional as you guys with phrases like " diagnosed with a combustion analyzer ".. I understand the sense of urgency and the need to drum a little business but it is pretty simple. Open window no soot. Closed window lots of soot... I just installed circuit breakers for Gas dryers and can do the ellectrical part no problem. The pipes I soldierd for the new kitchen sink worked the first time with no problems but hte plumber who came to my house had to redo pipes to hook up my laundry several times.. And he put PVC pipes together without using the purple stuff... I am still a litle concerned about that... he used the "Turn several times around" shut -off valves instead of the quarter turn valves I used when I did some work myself..

Where can I find someone who can take care of me... Or just someone to run the analyzer and tell my tenents the windows never should have been caulked shut then point me in the right direction.. I don't want to freeze them out either.. Or where can I find some instructions on how to set up a dedicated vent system for my steam gas boilers...??

John_105

I meant ellectrical dryers...

Weezbo

Howdy.

as a thought, the steam boilers that need to be cleaned are costing you more money by the month than you would be paying to provide sufficent outside air ,clean them and restore them to thier best combustion settings for your system.

even if the cost is more to get it done right, you are doing yourself and the tennants a favor by getting it done as soon as you can.

Mark Hunt

Hey Jim


Perhaps NCI should consider a "Find A Professional" link on their site.

I see MANY posts like this, people asking for help, yet none of us know who or where to direct them to.

Boston is a 4 hour ride from here and I don't think John wants to pay that bill!!!

Mark H

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jim lockard

Why not

Hang out here and see if someone from Boston will respond John. Their are a fair number of guys from your area that visit the wall. Best Wishes from Va. J.Lockard

Bob Harper

stop indiscriminant acts of desperation!

opening windows can actually cause backdrafting! If those windows are above the Neutral Pressure Plane or in a negative pressure zone such as cause by being downwind, you can suck enough air out of the house to backdraft appliances, distort burner flames, and cause sooting & CO.

FYI, you want the upper levels sealed tight with relief down low but it should be done under the guidance of a pro familiar with pressure diagnostics, combustion testing, etc.

John_105

Thanks!! gas heater full of SOOT

Great
! thanks guys! I can't do it all myself. I know there are good profesionals out there. I have only owned houses for a few years now. The very first one I had I hired a company called PANN to fix a toilet when we moved in. They were know to be exensive but were recently rated "Best of Boston". They sent some kid out who had to call some master plumber on the walkie talkie and explain what he was trying to do every 5 minutes.. We ended up paying a premium for a job that was'nt well done and I am sure they payed the kid, who was a good kid and real excited because he was on some training program or something.. minium wage and so some real good profesional like most of you guys did not get the business you should of got.

Unknown

John you are looking for

the least expensive way out and that is just not going to happen. If you give me a call (I am in RI) I will give you the number of someone who will help you. He can be trusted and will do a bang up job for you.

Just opening windows is not the answer. This is nothing to play with as someone can be killed from Carbon Monoxide poisioning. There are any number of things that can cause sooting in a piece of equipment and a professional will be able to find those problems.

You can reach me at 401-437-0557 or e-mail me at gastc@cox.net.

Ken D.

soot

The problem with " Open window- no soot, closed window- soot" is that you don't know what the condition of the combustion is until it soots again. This is not acceptable, especially with people or pets living in the building. Any adjustments should be made with a combustion analyzer. Carbon Monoxide is colorless, odorless and DANGEROUS! If it sooted once there is a good chance it will soot again. When a gas burner carbonizes, it produces CO. Do it right. Get a pro.

Mark Hunt

Hey Tim


I'll repeat the same question I asked Jim D to you.

How does a person like John find a qualified field tech when it comes to a combustion issue? Local "plummer guyz" don't have a clue and the "heeter guyz" can't find a problem.

Could be a race to get a "Find A Professional" link on someone's web site.

Could it be that there is a market for people with knowledge of combustion???

Mark H

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Steamhead (in transit)

John, if you can get a recommendation from Tim

go with it. Tim is one of the best in the industry, and knows who will do the job right.

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ed wallace

sooted boiler

hey i am in Watertown Ma. and am listed under find a pro give me a call

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John_105

what is a combustion analyzer? Does it cost extra to have one run or can the profesional diagnose the problem when he comes out after you agree to pay him 60 dollars?

Unknown

Mark, I agree there needs to

be some way to latch on to someone who knows what they are doing. I have my own list of people I recommend here in New England. I did give John from Sommerville one of them. I have not heard how they made out.

jim lockard

combustion

In the hands of a Pro a combustion anylizer will do just that tell you how well the fire is or is not burning. Most important is it tells if CO (carbon monoxide) is being generated and at what levels. Bacharach-inc.com will tell you more. As for the money I will leave that between parties to work out. Best Wishes J.Lockard

ed wallace

sooted boiler

time for a fan in a can and a good cleaning

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John_105

low tech sollution

Hey guys, this site would not be a good source or information on this, would it? It suggests openinng a window?

http://lancaster.unl.edu/home/IndoorAir/Gases.htm

Is that too low tech.. Are some problems a lot simpler than they appear sometimes?

what gives?

Weezbo

I am thinking this piece of equipment.....

you have lashed up to a masonry chimney of some sort.

and i'd hazard a guess it is over sized , running a cooler stack than it needs and has inadequate outside air , no bypass valve and is likely costing more to operate the POS than it costs to make the repairs to bring it into code as a minimum.

that is just a guess... oops...I hadnt realized i already replied to this post. *~/:)

brucewo1b

Bill I saw two instances mentioned of opening windows one is unvented appliances and this is not about an unvented appliance, second was to open window when using a fan such as a vent hood or bath fan. Here the discussion is a vented appliance that might not be getting enough supply air to the burner which if is true needs a permanent solution or find the reason for the sooting if not supply air related.

Mark Hunt

Opening a window


could make the problem worse.

I have seen instances where opening windows actually increased the amount of ambient CO in the living space. We've had cases where a chimney collapsed and when the HO opened the window they effectively turned their home into the chimney.

Mark H

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michael_21

soot/complaining

Dear John . this forum as I have read is about solving problems not attacking people I happen to be the owner of Pann Home Services who you mention in regards to a toilet problem. If you want to call me at any time to discuss your service issue with my company I would be glad to. O I would be very curious to know if when you had this problem you called my office and asked to speak with the owner , if you did you would have spoken to me.Know one including your self is perfect or at least I am not perfect , you may be different from the rest of us, however I never run from a customers concerns, I work to resolve them. hear in boston their is a well known seafood resturant that has many locations , and charges a very high price for their food , well one day while eating their lets say that something was moving in my soup and it wasn't fish if you know what I mean . Never before had this happened to me their. WellI spoke to the manager who took me into the kitchen to show me how clean it was an almost got on his hands and begged for forgivness. Did I except his forgivness ?. did I go back their and eat sure I did. The point ,if you don't let someone know, you can not know about the problem and take steps to correct them.When you perform like we do over 12,000 service calls a year and well over 1000 installations do you have mistakes yes the most important thing as an owner is to resolve these issues ,not run from them . So call me My name is MICHAL PANN and I am the Owner of Pann Home Services 1 617 293 7007 that is my cell phone . I can only asume that you to are an owner of some type of business and have employees and deal with these type of issues , and would be very happy to hear how you can help me make my company a better company to service my 11,324 active customers . I look forward to hearing from you Michael pann

Bob Forand

TO JOHN

Excuse me, but as I read the threads from John, I am not sure he wants the right answer. It seems as though he wants someone to tell his tenant to stop caulkng the windows, so that he can continue to open them....
John, every person on this site puts his/her pants on one leg at a time. You seem cynical because of past problems with other contractors. But the threads feel as though you are getting what you pay for. The "blah blah blah" comments are warranted because no one can diagnose your problem without seeing the issue. My two cents...break down and pay the price to save a life. You should not be playing with CO problems. If I was your tenant reading this I would claim I have a headache and see what your insurance company or my lawyer has to say. Sorry for seeming brutal, but again CO is nothing to play with, get it fixed by a professional....Good luck

ed wallace

to John

I am still waiting to hear from you

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Mark Hunt

Hey Mike


Not trying to break your stones or anything but......

Don't you think that you should be able to at least use "spell check" before you respond to someone? After all, you ARE the owner of a company...

Go back and read what you wrote. Copy and paste it into "Word" and see what happens.

I understand your concern with the reputation that your company has regarding the mechanics you put out on the road, but for the love of God man learn how to spell! You're supposed to be the smartest one in the bunch!

Peace!

Mark H

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Jonn

Hey

I have no problem paying a professional. I just don't want pay the guy that says a CO test needs to be done and it is going cost three hundred dollars but can't tell me why. So far, the only information I have gotten from any proffesional who was not my friend is

1. CO is very very dangerous
2. you need to pay for a proffesional.

Wow that so much good information that i just totally overwhellemed. This is not rocket science guys!

Well, I have a friend in the business now who is helping me out. And it is so refreshing to work with someone who can explain everything and make feel good about paying for something.....

ScottMP

probable

because he is a friend and is not charging you.

You waited ling enough John and got what you wanted.

Good Luck

Scott

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ed wallace

sooted boiler

so co testings not rocket science, i hope your friend has a effiency tester and not just a carbon monoxide detector hope he has insurance,

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deltat

Make sure your friend checks gas pressure compared to manufacturer recommendations. Low gas pressure will also cause a boiler to soot.

jim lockard

Sadly

John you sound like a tragedy waiting to happen, Any last words your tenants would like to post? Do you check on your tenants every morning or do you just wait for a phone call? Have you thought about their Epitaph?? Best Wishes J.Lockard

bovide_6

That was the

most obnoxious post I have seen in a long time:
"So far, the only information I have gotten from any proffesional who was not my friend is

1. CO is very very dangerous 2. you need to pay for a proffesional.

Wow that so much good information that i just totally overwhellemed. This is not rocket science guys! "

Even if you disagree, how about a little gratitude for people taking time to locate a pro to help you? Taking a look at the installs these pro's do, do you really think they need to "drum up business" by having to visit your decrepit heating system? Anyway, I still hope your situation works out OK for you and the other occupant's sake...

Unknown

John what you may have missed

was exceptional talent of the two guys I gave you their number to contact. These are guys who have been trained by Jim Davis and myself. From Jim you get the best in the business of combustion testing and CO related problems. Those who he trains bring the same professionalism to the job as Jim does. One of the individuals who I trained and has also been to Jims classes would have been able to give you not only the combustion side but insure your controls sytems are up to standards.

Sorry to say John it may be you loss. By the way these fellas do not charge an arm and a leg but even if they did you would be getting the best.

I hope and pray for the sake of lives involved that your friend is at least equal if not exceeding my recommended pros'capabilities.

John_104

Actually

Tim,

Your guy set an appointment with us, then called and said he was running late, then either called again and said he was not coming, or just never showed up? I was out of town, but my wife stayed home that morning...

John_104

Tim,

Your guy set an appointment with us, then called and said he was running late, then he either called again and said he was not coming or coming later again, and then finally just never showed up at all and we have not heard back from him? I was out of town, but my wife stayed home that morning to pay him 60 dollars for the opportunity to earn our business ...So all that knowledge and skill is useless to us if we can't rely on it.

Ron Root_2

Sooting

After reading all the threads replying to your question. I have a couple of questions. How big is the area the boiler is in? How big (input) is the boiler? How tight is the house? Attic or other fans on? If the tennant caulked the basement windows and the boiler is in a closet or a very tight area, it could contribute to your problems.Is it a single burner boiler? What type is it (A.O. Smith, etc.)? Spider web or blockage in burner or spud? Having the boiler properly serviced annually usually prevents any of these type of problems. Fluctuating gas pressure, screen on gas meter iced or partially blocked? Gas pressure remains constant when other gas appliances on? Dead critter or nest partially blocking vent pipes or chimney? If it is just a matter of combustion air, put a properly sized motorized damper where one of the windows are. Have the thermostat control the damper, and the end switch of the damper energize the boiler if you have that type of control set up. I'm guessing it'll be one of those solutions where you hit your head and say "how did I miss that?".