Venting Steam Mains - Steamhead? Thanks!

stevenyc_2

...Desperation, maybe :)

The wife wants heat (women always want it warmer than men - it's an inevitable and universal truth) and I have to find a way to provide her that heat without making us go broke. I can't believe how high oil prices are. I am in denial because it looks like prices aren't going to come down any time soon, if ever.

My conscience also dictates that I should make my system as efficient as possible so that I am polluting as little as possible and doing my share to conserve. Of course it doesn't help that I save a few bucks in the process. Thanks again for your help and thanks to everyone for all the help!

stevenyc_2

Venting Steam Mains - Steamhead? Thanks!

Well, I added three Gorton #1's at the end of the longest steam main run: 45 feet, 2.5 inch diameter piping, and I didn't notice much of a difference in the amount of time it took to vent the main and feel heat at the end.

I timed the amount of time that it took from when I felt heat at the beginning of the main to when I felt it at the end where my 3 Gorton #1's are and it took 5 1/2 minutes. Previously, when I had only 1 Gorton #1 at the end of the main it took about 6 minutes. Not much of a difference with an extra 2 #1 vents added! From what I have read in other posts it should take only 1-3 minutes.

The vents are attached to an L that comes off of the point where the single #1 used to screw in. The L is pitched slightly toward that in order to drain any condensate that may form in the added pipe. When I put my hand in front of the vents I can feel cold air coming out but it seems to be coming out rather slowly/leisurely. Meaning there isn't a lot of force behind the air.

I'm still noticing the following issues:

1) My boiler is building up to about 4-4.5 PSI and then shuts off due to pressure. The pressuretrol is set to the lowest point. Then it cycles on 5-6 minutes and off 3-3.5 minutes. It takes more time that I would like for temp to be satisfied. Additional info: I also recently installed a VisionPro 8000 and set the cycle rate to 1.

2) The Gorton D vents on some of the upstairs rads (the ones hardest to heat) are still sucking air in (rather loudly) for about 30 seconds after the thermostat is satisfied and the boiler has been off for about 3-5 minutes.

Any help with this would be much appreciated! Thanks.

adayton

Venting Multiples

You can NOT put three vents of from a SINGLE spot where the former lingle vent used to be....you MUST cut the 2 1/2 inch main near wherre the original singl Gorton vent was and put in THREE tees in series with the 2 1/2 inch pipe then off each tee reduce down to the Gorton vent. This layout will provide a far greater throughput for the volume of air trying to escape the end of the main which then of course sets the steam get there faster to do its job.
Alfred

stevenyc_2

Thanks. To clarify, I was going by this...

...from a previous post which Steamhead made. My T looks like the the one with the three vents on it.

Adayton, could you clarify your recommendation/suggestion? Pardon my ignorance and thanks again for any info. Take care.

Steve

thfurnitureguy_4

Steve, the fittings that Steamhead is using are 1" pipe with reduction Ts down to the 1/2" for the Gortons. This should be ok.

Steamhead (in transit)

And

the ones in the pic are Gorton #2 vents, but yours are #1 which have less capacity. If you're installing them on a takeoff that is 1/2" or larger, you should be OK.

Check to make sure the boiler water is clean, the firing rate is what it should be and last but not least, that you don't have a steam leak somewhere. The latter could be in the boiler itself, sending steam up the chimney where you can't see it unless it's real cold out- then you'd see a white plume coming from the chimney.

"Steamhead"

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Hitzkup

venting capacity

if you use 3/4" pipe. 3 gorton # 1's stil don't exceed the venting capacity for 3/4" pipe.

steamheads manifold is #2's

mark sch

stevenyc_2

But venting still takes 5 1/2 minutes...

Perhaps it has something to do with my particular system/setup as to why a T like this doesn't work. Is there any more information that I can provide?

Here's a picture of the end of the main and the Gorton #1 that used to be there. I will take a picture of the new T tonight and post. Thanks!

stevenyc_2

All things being equal before and after the change,...

...regarding a possible boiler leak and other causes for the time to heat the mains being longer than normal, I still figured that 3 #1's would have shown more improvement over a single one.

adayton

Vent Manifold

Where your old single Gorton WAS you need to have a one to one and a half inch output off the end of that mains elbow feeding three tees manifold off of which you have the three Gortons (Gorton No. 1, 3/4" x 1/2" Air Eliminator (Main Vent Valve) )Just like Steamheads three piece model. The KEY is the tee "manifold" must be "LARGE" in relation to the Gorton 3/4" thread size. I would use 1 1/2" if possible but 1" would do.

http://www.pexsupply.com/index.cfm/action/catalog.browse/category_header/1/id_category/9ad86cb1-ac62-4f4d-a73b-594633b64ccc

stevenyc_2

Thanks for the clarification...

One more question...

The manifold piping that I used is 3/4" just like the Gorton vent so that is not good if I understood you suggestion correctly.

I am going to redo it with 1" or 1.5" piping but my question is...wouldn't the bottle neck still be the point where the single Gorton #1 used to be and also where the new T comes off of. That point is only 3/4". Do I also need to change that elbow so that the hole is at least 1" to accomodate the wider piping? Or should I just increase the piping of the manifold?

Thanks!

John S.

Forgive me for being critical...

...but it seems to me we're all disregarding the fact that you're running upwards of 4psi at the boiler. Get the pressure down before worrying about how fast the main heats, or the best venting manifold configuration.

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adayton

Mains Vent

You MUST change it at the Mains elbow. The whole point is to make unobstructed 1 1/2 inch VOLUME flow throughput from the 2 1/2" mains endpoint. Pleas recheck that port on the elbow where the original Gorton was. It should have a reducer fitting that reduced the large elbow port down to the 3/4" Gorton thread size. remove this reducer fitting and replace it with a 1" or 1 1/2" reducer fitting. Then run your tee manifold at that size, further reducing each tee down to 3/4" for each Gorton. Ifthe mains elbow does not have a removeable fitting then YES you will have to replace the mains elbow to one that will accomodate the larger piping manifold..regards, Alfred

adayton

Steamhead Question, re: #1 -VS- #2 Gorton

It seems that the Gorton #2 with 1/2" threads has a larger throughput rating than the Gorton #1 with 3/4" thread????
is this so? if so then 1" manifold with three Gorton #2 vents should work fine ( perhaps even the 3/4" manifold would be adequate with #2s)..otherwise to utilize existing brand new Gorton #1s means expanding to 1" manifold.. Alfred

Bob W._3

The Gorton No. 1 has 3/4" external threads and 3/8" internal threads, thus can be mounted on, for example, a 3/4"T or a 3/8" nipple. The opening is only 3/8".

The real world tests of Gill and Pajek report that an open 1/2" pipe will vent 4.8 CFM at 3 oz. pressure and a 3/4" open pipe will vent 9.5 CFM at 3 oz. pressure. A Gorton No. 1 vents .7 CFM and a Gorton No. 2 vents 2.2 CFM at the same pressure. From what I've read on this Board, the thinking is that a 3/4" tap will handle 4 (but not 5) No. 2's, and a whole pile of No. 1's. Thats the way its being reported.

Steamhead (in transit)

Bob nailed it

There's no need to go larger than 3/4-inch on that manifold for three Gorton #1 vents.

Adayton, the thread size on the #2 does throw people off, but it's still the largest-capacity vent out there. It was originally designed for Gorton's Vapor systems of long ago. They just never changed the thread size to the "standard" 3/4-inch outside and 1/2-inch inside used by the Gorton #1, Hoffman, Vent-Rite and others. So in a lot of cases we end up using 3/4x1/2-inch bushings to install the #2.

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adayton

Nailed Threads...

> There's no need to go larger than 3/4-inch on

> that manifold for three Gorton #1 vents.

> Adayton, the thread size on the #2 does throw

> people off, but it's still the largest-capacity

> vent out there. It was originally designed for

> Gorton's Vapor systems of long ago. They just

> never changed the thread size to the "standard"

> 3/4-inch outside and 1/2-inch inside used by the

> Gorton #1, Hoffman, Vent-Rite and others. So in a

> lot of cases we end up using 3/4x1/2-inch

> bushings to install the #2.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

adayton

Nailed Thread Size on Vents...

> There's no need to go larger than 3/4-inch on

> that manifold for three Gorton #1 vents.

> Adayton, the thread size on the #2 does throw

> people off, but it's still the largest-capacity

> vent out there. It was originally designed for

> Gorton's Vapor systems of long ago. They just

> never changed the thread size to the "standard"

> 3/4-inch outside and 1/2-inch inside used by the

> Gorton #1, Hoffman, Vent-Rite and others. So in a

> lot of cases we end up using 3/4x1/2-inch

> bushings to install the #2.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 367&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

adayton

Nailed Thread Size on Vents...

Thanks Bob and Steamhead for clearing up the confusion on Gorton thread sizes :-).... larger size typically invokes thought indications of larger capacity/throughput/GPH flow/etc. Since three #1s seem to be insuficient, would there be any problem adding 1 or 2 #2s to this 3/4" manifold?
Or, is there some other reason the three #1s are not expulsing the air quickly enough? alfred

Bob W._3

Need to wait for Stevenyc to post his "after" pictures. Remember he was in a real tight space with no room to use No. 2's. He had 45' of 2&1/2" main. That works out to 1.54 cu. ft. Three No. 1's should have been able to vent that amount of air in about a minute. Thats the theory part. Probably take a steam guy to actually look at his main to see what the problem is.

Here is Gorton's web page on their vents:

http://www.gorton-valves.com/specify.htm

stevenyc_2

Venting Mains - AFTER photo

Here's a picture of the T/manifold with the 3 Gorton #1's.

As stated previously, venting still takes 5.5 minutes and it doesn't feel like a large volume of air is coming out of these 3 vents.

Someone mentioned that perhaps I should address the 4 PSI pressure issue first...well, I thought that I was because improperly vented mains cause boilers to cut off due to pressure. Am I wrong about this? What else should I check?

Again, any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Hitzkup

street elbow

as per steamhead in a past year post on a silmilar topic change your elbow to a regular with a short nipple.the i.d. of a street is much less then a regular.

mark sch
nyc

Steamhead (in transit)

That's true

a regular ell and a close nipple will pass more air.

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adayton

So a short ( 1" ) nipple, with a regular 90 degree elbow will give larger internal diameter flow. This plus extend your manifold with 2 to 4 more #1s should show big improvement. Alfred

stevenyc_2

Is this the post referred to with the other person with elbow...

...problems?

BTW, that Gorton #2 is a monster!!! I wish I could fit it in but I think Steamhead said that 3-4 #1's are about the same venting as 1 #2. I sure hope so because I'm trying to get to where this guy got!

Pardon my ignorance but could someone clarify a little more. It's hard for me to visualize what the solution is since the pipe runs down from that point to the wet return. I understand the regular elbow but where does the 1" nipple go in relation to that elbow and my guess is the that the manifold with the 3-4 Gorton #1's is attached to the 1" nipple...is that correct? Thanks again to you all. As always, incredible help!


Previous Post

...and picture:

shawn_11

Steve, I haven't seen anyone answer your question about pressure, and I'm curious about that myself. Is it correct that the cut-in on your pressuretrol is at .5? It also sounds like your differential isset high, if you're getting up to 4.5psi for cut-out. Have you tried keeping the differential at 1?

I realize the theory is that all those new gortons should vent so fast that you never get to cut-out pressure. So setting the differential lower shouldn't matter--personally, being curious, I'd still give it a shot.

And, how does the dial showing boiler pressure correspond to how the pressuretrol is set. ie, what does that dial show when you're at cut-in and cut-out.

Also, is there anything else on the system that acts like a main vent well before your new vents--ie a whole bunch of big radiators with vari-valves right at the beginning of the main?

Another thing i'd be curious about (maybe I'll change my posting name to curious george...) when you have an open 3/4 pipe (main vents removed), do you notice the steam (ie the pipe heating) going to a certain point and then going noticibly slower from there?

Also, I've never seen it recommended to put a main vent at the very end--which is where yours is. Could that placement somehow be blocking air escaping in that spot? (a lot of condensate is heading south right there, i'd imagine)

[EDIT: one more thing--when your system stops (which it sounds like is when you've hit the cut-out setting) have your new gortons stopped venting and shut?]

thfurnitureguy_4

Shawn, the main vents should go at the end or rather 14" before the elbow where the main drops to become a return or after the last radiator off the main. The steam main should be completely full of steam all the way to the vents. The pressure setting and number of vents will not effect pressure until all of the vents are closed. This means that the radiators are full of steam with vents closed also. If at this point the stat is still calling, your boiler should start to build pressure and shut down from that pressure. The steam will still move each time your radiators or main vents cool off and let more steam in even if the boiler is not firing. As long as the pressure is up there is available steam. When the pressure drops the boiler will re fire.

[Deleted User]

Assuming the

inside diameter of the 3/4" street 90 (@ the small end) is 5/8" - the internal area is .3066". The combined inside area of 3 #1 Gortons (they also make them w/ a 3/8" male connection) is .3294". Close enough for what you want to do.

I would check two other things. Is the boiler pressure gage correct? Do you have enough input to really steam the boiler?

stevenyc_2

Thanks shawn! Here are replies to your questions...

SHAWN: Have you tried keeping the differential at 1?

I have a Honeywell pressuretrol (see pic). I had a previous oil company set the MAIN at 4-5 and the pressure went up almost to 10 PSI! That was a good year for them and I was the fool for it. I promptly switched oil companies and bought Dan's book so I wouldn't be suckered again. Currently the MAIN is set BELOW the 0, almost to the bottom point where it can't go down any further. The DIFF is set just below the 2 which is the first number on the PSI side. I don't know if I set things right but now the system burns less oil, no hammer and decent heat but I know that things are not as efficient as they could be because it takes me 5-6 minutes to get steam to the end of the mains and about 45-60 minutes to achieve heat on all rads. It also still takes a while to satisfy the thermostat.

SHAWN: And, how does the dial showing boiler pressure correspond to how the pressuretrol is set. ie, what does that dial show when you're at cut-in and cut-out.

To me, the lay person, and non-expert, the pressuretrol behavior doesn't make sense. If I set the pressuretrol BELOW 0 then shouldn't the pressure never go above 0. I only set it there because it is the only way to keep the PSI from going over 5. Is something wrong with my pressuretrol? I hope not...they aren't cheap. The boiler pressure gauge shows a little over 4 PSI and then turns off - I guess that's cut out??? The pressure drops and in a little over 3 minutes when the pressure gets to almost 0, the boiler turns back on...cut in.

SHAWN: Also, is there anything else on the system that acts like a main vent well before your new vents--ie a whole bunch of big radiators with vari-valves right at the beginning of the main?

Not that I can think of. The first kitchen rad that the main hits has a Gorton #4 which is a pretty small vent. Then it hits the first riser and then another kitchen rad which never really heats up. It's hard to get to so I haven't decided whether to kill the line to it or try fixing the vent on it. Then it hits another riser before elbowing to a dry then wet return. The main vents are on that elbow. Perhaps the cold kitchen rad is stealing from the system??? My feeling has always been that since the vent is stuck closed on that rad and it never heats up then no steam is going to it and therefore isn't a liability. Maybe that logic is wrong?

SHAWN: when you have an open 3/4 pipe (main vents removed), do you notice the steam (ie the pipe heating) going to a certain point and then going noticibly slower from there?

I haven't tried this. Didn't think about trying to see if there is a bottleneck. I will try tonight.

SHAWN: Also, I've never seen it recommended to put a main vent at the very end--which is where yours is. Could that placement somehow be blocking air escaping in that spot? (a lot of condensate is heading south right there, i'd imagine)

Agreed. It does seem like the piping is all wrong there. My problem is that there is a riser right before that point and apparently it isn't good to have the vents BEFORE the riser per recommendations given from previous posts. I am open to any suggestions including massively reworking the piping. Heck, I tore apart the basement drainage plumbing. Might as well go all the way. I am just hesitant and have had trouble finding an expert in my area. Everyone is either busy or only works on GAS

Again, Thanks Shawn for asking. I hope I have clarified your questions and would really appreciate any help or guidance. Take care!

Steve

adayton

Nipples

Steve, you need to remove YOUR entiremanifold. then take off the 90 degree "street" elbow that you had screwed into the BIG mains elbow (where the original went was). Then you will put into that spot on the Mains elbow a 1" long (maybe 1 1/2" long if you got room)3/4" thread pipe "nipple". Your local plumbing supply will know what that is (simply put it is a short length of pipe). Then you will put on top of that a 90 degree "REGULAR" elbow. then you will reattach the rest of your manifole assembly which is perfect (MINUS the street elbow). You could see improvement though if you extend your manifold with 2 or 3 more Gortons #1s. Also when all is said and done with Mains Venting, as Shawn and John S. indicated, You should work on reducing the pressure. While 4 PSI is not horribly the end of the world... it is however unnecessary. Your pressuretrol should be set to 0.5 (NOT to 0.0 ) and the offset (differential) should be set to 1.0. This will maintain 1.5 PSI which is more than you need. If you find need you could always increase the differential, but that should not be necessary. Alfred

stevenyc_2

Thanks...

Now I get it. I thought I was supposed to disassemble the mains elbow. Sorry for needing such hand-holding. I learn so much here! Thanks.

shawn_11

Wow, sounds like you’re onto it.

I noticed there are different terms being used for setting a pressuretrol. Perhaps someone on the wall familiar with your pressuretrol could specify how to set the diff and main so as to achieve .5/1.5 cut-in/cut-out—if you’re not already on top of it. [I see adayton was pretty thorough though]

Also, when you’re doing the swap adayon detailed, perhaps you might still want to see how fast the steam moves with just an opening where your new piping connects (nothing but the original hole in the main to restrict cold air out). This would serve as a good benchmark for adding future #1s.

Finally, I don’t think a cold radiator could steal from the system. Personally, I’d still vent it though. And I’d avoid killing a line or doing any re-piping unless you actually know what the problem is and that your actions are going to solve it. On the other hand, your willingness to really work on the system is impressive.

[Deleted User]

The L404 Series

Honeywell has a subtractive differential. If you set the main @ 1.5# & the differential @1#; the burner will cut off @ 1.5 & cut back on @ .5#.

stevenyc_2

Thanks Ron...a few questions

My only confusion is that the first number on the subtractive differential guage is 2. How do I set it to 1.5 without guessing at some point below the 2?

Also, the MAIN is currently set below the 0 mark so wouldn't raising it up to 1.5 increase the max pressure that the boiler will go to?

Someone else in another post asked something like this ealier...

HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, let's say that there is an efficiently running steam system where the oil boiler is sized correctly and the mains and rads are vented properly. What kind of cycling should one expect in this situation and how long should it take (roughly of course-for a 2000 SF home with some insulation) to raise the thermostat 5 degrees on a day where the outside temperature is 32 F.

Should we expect the boiler to run continuously at 1.5 PSI until the thermostat is satisfied without cutting out or shutting off on pressure

-or-

Should we expect the boiler to build steam to above 1.5 PSI and shut off and then cut in again at 0.5 PSI. If so, what should we expect to get as far as how long the boiler is off when it shuts off on pressure and how long should we expect the boiler to be on after it cuts back in from low pressure. How many times will the boiler go through this on/off cycle before it satisfies the thermostat.

Thanks again for the help!

adayton

Pressurtrol


!!! OUCH !!! No wonder pressure NOT getting steam up to your radiators. As someone previously mentioned here, This Model Honeywell Pressuretrol is 'subtractive'. That is you must set the MAIN to 1.5PSI and set the differential to 1PSI. As heat is called for pressure will rise to the 1.5PSI MAINs setpoint and cut out the boiler flame until the pressure DROPS the "differential" value of 1PSI down too 0.5PSI whereapon the burner will resume firing. This cycle recurs until thermostat is satisfied. Try adjust this and let us know what you observe. Alfred