Anode replacement ... Do you do it ??

Larry Weingarten

...in this thread, helps me to come up with a few more comments.
How cost effective is anode replacement? If a tank lasts ten years and costs $800 to install, that's $80 per year. Most tanks come with one anode, which, in most waters will last four years before needing replacement. Say you do charge $100 to replace the rod. For ease of figuring, say you replace the rod every five years and only double the life of the tank. Total cost of the heater and maintenance for 20 years is then $800+100+100 or $1000... or $50 per year as compared to $80 per year. My experience is that once a tank has been serviced, all later work is far easier and faster, bringing labor cost down. Also doubling the life of the tank is a big understatement. Experience demonstrates far better results.

I use a torque multiplier to get rods out and have only had one that refused to move. (Later learned to use a six point socket and grind the end flat so it really has good bearing on the rod's head.) The right tools are essential!

If the water is softened, the anode can be down to a bare wire in six months. Folks with softeners really need plumbers who will change anodes.

I've developed a very loyal client base that does all my advertising for me because I'm able to give them worry and trouble free hot water. It really is win-win.

Yours, Larry
ps. Scott. That sediment looks like it came from an aluminum anode. Magnesium produces far less byproduct ;~)

ScottMP

I had a customer who

wanted us to replace her anode rod since it was good for the hot water heater.

It got me thinking that this is something we NEVER do and might be a good service to offer our customers.

Do any of you offer this service ?

Do you use the "linked" style of replacement unit ?

Have you found it usefull to your customers ??

Scott

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Unknown

It will add years to the life

of water heaters if done every two years. Some results of tests I have witnessed on low price Home Depot special water heaters is that four of them are now into year 12 with no signs of failure.

Past tests I was involved with on about 30 tanks with every two year replacement 19 of those tanks are now into year 25, those are glass lined A.O. Smith, JetGlas, Nautilus, and 6 State Water heaters.

In some cases when Anodes had not been replaced within the two years showed signs of damage in the fifth year and it was progressive from that point on. Most failed within 10 years to 12 years.

Down side is that you are not going to be replacing water heaters as often for customers which may be an income issue, but then again we truly want to help our customers so that should not be an issue.

Larry Weingarten may have some better statistics than mine on this issue.

On the water heater issue, I have about 50 Trageser Copper Tanks that were installed over 40 years ago that are still humming along with no sign of failure. Then there are the Ruud Monel tanks I have one in a friends house that has been in 50 years.

Larry Weingarten

I've worked on about...

...4000 heaters. The failure rate if you exclude things like overhead plumbing leaking down onto the tank is about half of one percent for a time frame over fifteen years. The oldest glass lined tanks are now over fifty. Anode replacement does seem to work.

Yours, Larry

dconnors

Anode replacement

Absolutely necessary to maintain your warranty.

Dale

I don't see it IMHO

If you do the math is it a good value for the customer? What would you charge? Lets say $100 to change the anode, no warranty and what if something breaks and leaks, or leaks tomorrow? and a new heater can be changed out for $600 with a new warranty. With people moving as often as they do is the home inspector impressed with that old heater? How many non-warranty furnaces get a replacement heat exchanger when the old one rusts out? The payback just doesn't work and that's why it isn't done. Put the money in a Roth IRA and enjoy the magic of compounding interest. I should say that if you do your own change out and the anode is free that's different. What kills tanks where I live is lime and no water softener. My company used to sell heaters and do free deliming on the commercial ones ( all our Rheem heaters came with a 2" cleanout ). I got rid of my own 34 year old 30 gal cheap builders model 2 years ago, original anode, it worked fine and no leaks but I wanted a new 40 gal one and not a FVIR. I pulled the anode out with a 3/4" drive 1 1/16" socket, Cheater and it had about 1/2 life left.

gerry gill

i do it on mine...

and i offer the service to my customers also...ever wonder how a steel submarine can sit in salt water and not rust...ive changed out thousands of anode bars in ballast tanks..

Dale

True

If it's steel and expensive and in contact with wet earth it's cathodically protected. Ships in the dock and long pipelines are on rectifiers, shorter pipes in urban areas on anodes. We install (cad weld onto the gas mains and 69KV elect cable in pipes) hundreds of #32 pound anodes every year and that's good since what we are protecting makes it cost effective. I don't know what you charge but I wonder if it's cost effective.

Mad Dog_2

Sounds nice but I'm with Dale here

Mad Dog

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michael_15

I think that some people would do it

to avoid the risk of having the tank spring a leak and ruin their finished basement, costing them thousands. Of course, in that event, they could just buy a new heater every 6 years regardless of the condition. . .

-Michael

David_5

Anodes

It is expensive for gas water heaters. Oil is a different story. Hopefully an oil water heater is serviced each year. Part of the service should be to check the annode. The tank will last longer if the anode is kept up and your there anyway.
I think if you wait 5 to 10 years to check the anode they are very hard to get loose.

David

Christian Egli

A leak pan is cheap insurance too

Getting the silt out of hot water heaters seems just as important as worrying about corrosion. Silt affects heat transfer and reduces efficiency in a catastrophic way, while corrosion will (only) cause a water leak.

I would suggest doing a call to change the anode and do a total blow down and rinse out of the hot water tank. The sort of flush that calls for removing the boiler drain so that large sediments can get out.

By straining the flush water you can show the home owner how much junk comes out. It would make it worth the call.

We've just solved such a problem for a laundry. Silt and grit from the heater was causing problems in the washing machine. We changed the boiler drain on the tank to allow for much better blow down with instructions to do blow-downs regularly like on a steam boiler. I tested the pH in the bucket of silt at 8.8 .

I'll admit it never crossed my mind to look at the anode on this job. It is 10 - 15 years old. Sorry. I'll get back to it.

Dale makes a lot of good sense.

Unknown

We're seeing

an average of around 15 years on the tanks we change , mostly Bock oil fired , and many electric heaters converted to aquaboosters . None of them had the anode rod replaced . I would wonder if it makes cost sense to change the rod every 2 years or install a brand new tank every 15 . It sounds like a good upsell to any customer though .

Is there an aftermarket anode system that is powered electrically , like the Buderus style indirect ( forget the model number ) ?

Robert O'Connor_7

Anode..

Anode replacement is recomended and will extend a heaters life. Bonding is also quite effective as well. Combinding the two should bring a few more years of life but I doubt it will ever compare to the ol' copper tanks of years ago.

Good idea!

Good customer relations!

Increased sales!

WIN! WIN!

Robert O'Connor/NJ

billygoat22

I suppose it depends on your water quality. My new bradford white needed a new rod in under three years. The water here has an affinity for copper as well as being on the acid side.
Copper piping hardly lasts about 30yrs on well water. City water from surface sources seems not to eat up stuff as bad- seen plenty of 40 and 50 yr old heaters. The brass in the original old faucets in my house was like an old sponge from the action of the water, rather crumbly looking.

ScottMP

I am thinking

Along the lines with Robert O'Conner.

Good customers realtions, win/win deal.

We would offer a service to change the anode and flush the tank. How can this be a bad thing. When you look at the broad scheme of things what percentage of people even look at their heatoing systems let alone thier hot water heater.

I know of NO oil companys that look at the anode rod. I mean pull it out and check !!

I will be offering this to our customers. Pull and check the rod and flush the tank. Is'nt not doing this like not checking the heating system and just waiting for it to fail so it can be replaced ?

There is a reason the draw-off at the bottom of the tank is called a Sediment Cock.

Thanks for all the input.

Scott

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Ken_8

I'm with

MD and Dale as well.

Unless you carry a pneumatic impact wrench in your truck and can buy anodes for under 20-bucks a pop, even with the expensive flame arrester add-costs, a water heater is a throw-away item.

And, unless the water itself is problematic, typically last over 10 years anyhow.



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Dale

Open mind

Good for you Scott, try things and keep an open mind, I don't like a throwaway society any better than most of the people here, I fix anything I can, that's why I have an avacodo colored stove. If you keep complete cost records on this work and any callbacks you are doing a favor for us all. You can't manage it if you don't measure it. I enjoyed Alan Levey's (sp?) book on setting up a business and keeping close track of all costs, I believe his company dropped some jobs that from a mix of time and call backs didn't give them the profit they needed. Now we'll find out if the anode change activity can be a profit center. One comment, like Larry Weingarten I have found a Sweeney torque multiplier (50 to 1 I think) is about the only way to safely loosen a good portion of the anode nuts. 3/4" drive out 1/2" in, Jam it against something and put a long 1/2" ratchet into the top.

ScottMP

A compund wrench

is what you use.

I don't know about your area but with the new flame arrestor its not that "throw away" and it should'nt be. I mean just how much more room is there in the mighty Passaic ?

Maybe if we gave them maintenance it would'nt be a throw away.

You must have spring water going thu the pipes up there because around here they don't last that long.

Scott

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Ken_8

We tried replacing a few,

the biggest problem is finding something to "buck up" the torque applied to the tank - without dinging it big-time and the fact that the crown of the anonde nut is flush with sheet metal jacket top, leaving no working geometry for the jaws to not destroy the surrounding "cabinet."

Given the 10+ year age of the burners, T&P valve, gas valve and hot and cold water connections which seem to leak by everyone except us, we could never justify what you suggest as viable, for us, our customers or anode manufacturers.

Re-anoding a 10+ year old water heater is like putting fertilizer on a weed.

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ScottMP

Got this out of a

hot water heater today. We flushed it out to improve the performance and this was a Small Amount of what got out of it.

I think a filter, a flushing and Anode replacement would be very helpfully to extend the like of these " throw away " items.....

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ScottMP

Ahhhhh

but a four year old tank !!! Thats what I was thinking.

A ten year old tank is time for the replacement talk. Do it now Mam, if you wait it will die on New Years Eve.

Scott

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Dave Mayer -3 Sons Heating

This oil company does!

I manage an oil company. All of my technicians and myself check and/or change anode rods on our customer's equipment yearly. Each service van is supplied with an electric impact wrench and appropriate sockets. We use the "link style" this helps us in all situations i.e. low ceilings etc.
Dave

Chuck Mac

anode

Imho it is by far more important to flush the bottom of the tank on a monthly basis when it is installed. I pull out anodes regularly when I change a heater and find most are in good condition. Removing the sediment from the heater works best and really extends its life.
But don't start draining a 6 or 7 year old heater sometime the sediment is all that holds them together LOL


Chuck

B. Tice

anodes

I agree with Dave on the electric impact. I do anodes on oil heaters. BUT.........for those of you new to anode removal, be careful about application of force with long wrenches.You can damage the heater or if it is not on stable footing, knock it over.I once knocked over a Bock 32e while trying to loosen the rod.Not a good experience.By the way, Buderus style electric anodes are available for standard heaters, but they are like over $300.00. This might be too expensive for most situations.

ScottMP

Larry

Tell me why softened water eats up the anode faster ?

Also are magnesium rods on a whole better or is it case by case ? How about the linked rods, are they a good choice for the customer.

Thanks for all you input on this.

Also how about a filter before the tank ?


Scott

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Wayco Wayne

Our water comes from

the Potomac River which originates in the Limestone caves of West VA. Scale is the big problem here and flushing is the smart thing to do. I offer my customers a change out of the drain to a ball valve with cap so they can flush with great velocity. Most dont do it. They can't be bothered with flushing it. Does changing an anode rod help in a scale situation? Also what are these tools you are mentioning, the compund wrench and torque mulitplier?? Does anyone have any pictures? WW

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Larry Weingarten

Softened water...

...has had the "hardness" removed by substituting salt in it's place. Salt dissolves readily, while calcium doesn't, so the water feels soft. Salt makes the water more conductive too, speeding up anode consumption. Softening is good for the heater in that it will reduce sediment build-up and bad if the anode isn't checked regularly.

I prefer magnesium as it produces a little more current, protecting the heater better. As aluminum anodes corrode, they usually drop chunks of anode from the rod. This is wasted metal. Magnesium doesn't do that, so is more efficient. Aluminum produces roughly 1000 times its volume as corrosion byproduct. This goo sits like a blanket in the bottom of the tank creating overheating and noise in fuel fired heaters. Magnesium generates far less sediment. Aluminum has been linked to stomach disorders and other medical maladies. Magnesium is available in the health food store.

Linked rods are useful where overhead is limited, but they cost more. So, I try to use solid rods where I can as a savings to my clients. Usually I bend the solid rod in the center and straighten it once it's half way into the tank. If there is 2.5 feet or less overhead clearance, I'll use a segmented rod.

A filter will catch debris in the water. Sediment comes from the anode and from dissolved hardness, so a filter (other than RO) won't get it. Hope that helps.

Yours, Larry

ps. Attached is a photo of my poor, overworked and abused torque multiplier. For every three turns in at the ratchet, you get one turn out. This old style puts out up to 600 foot pounds. The newer ones do 750. I added the "foot" to make it easy to use on nearly any heater.

S Davis

Anode

We use Buderus ST series tanks that have an electric anode monitor that tells you when it needs replaced, I wonder why more water heater man. do not use them:-)


S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

Larry Weingarten

Question.

I looked up the ST series and the info said they come with electric anodes. There are sacrificial anodes and impressed current anodes. One gets its energy from the corroding of the metal. The other has power applied to it to make it work. It sounded like you were describing a monitor for sacrificial anodes, but it looks like an impressed current anode. If it's a monitor, I have a few thousand folks who would be interested!

Yours, Larry