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Constantin
Member Posts: 3,796
... perhaps a better way to describe the following process is clutching at straws! :-P
Anyhow, I suspect that the system is losing water whenever there is a variable season at hand... i.e. whenever the heat load goes variable due to warm days and cold nights, something is giving way... and my guess it's in the distribution system since otherwise the problem would persist all summer long as the boiler keeps up with the coil.
Once you have winter conditions, the boiler is always on, the house piping always warm, i.e. not the same swings come into the system. In the summer, the piping is always cold...
I would also send a sample to George at Rhomar for testing. I suspect that the water/glycol is bad, i.e. corrosive. It might make sense to add a colorant to water to determine the location of any leaks. We've used dye on the boat hydraulics to good effect. It's amazing how far a little of that powdered stuff goes!
Also, is the piping correct? Are they pumping away from the PONPC? Are they creating a bad situation with air bubbles everywhere due to low system pressure?
How high is the system pressure? Is the pressure high enough to ensure that air does not come out of solution at the top of the house? We had to raise ours from 12 to 18psi for a happy system...
Given that this is Maine, I would consider putting all the electronics of the heating system on a UPS that filters the worst spikes, brownouts, etc. That can cover the worst swings/outtages. I also like your idea of using a IDWH.
Anyhow, I suspect that the system is losing water whenever there is a variable season at hand... i.e. whenever the heat load goes variable due to warm days and cold nights, something is giving way... and my guess it's in the distribution system since otherwise the problem would persist all summer long as the boiler keeps up with the coil.
Once you have winter conditions, the boiler is always on, the house piping always warm, i.e. not the same swings come into the system. In the summer, the piping is always cold...
I would also send a sample to George at Rhomar for testing. I suspect that the water/glycol is bad, i.e. corrosive. It might make sense to add a colorant to water to determine the location of any leaks. We've used dye on the boat hydraulics to good effect. It's amazing how far a little of that powdered stuff goes!
Also, is the piping correct? Are they pumping away from the PONPC? Are they creating a bad situation with air bubbles everywhere due to low system pressure?
How high is the system pressure? Is the pressure high enough to ensure that air does not come out of solution at the top of the house? We had to raise ours from 12 to 18psi for a happy system...
Given that this is Maine, I would consider putting all the electronics of the heating system on a UPS that filters the worst spikes, brownouts, etc. That can cover the worst swings/outtages. I also like your idea of using a IDWH.
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I'm Listening
Had a long phone call from a person whose heating system is exhibiting multiple problems. Twelve year old house; 4,000 sq. ft.; combination in slab radiant, gypcrete radiant and baseboard; glycol in system; tankless coil with recirc; oil-fired with power venter; telestats on radiant manifolds.
Problems: documented average yearly oil consumption of 2,000 gallons; most telestats replaced at least once; expansion tank replaced twice; 3-4 automatic air vents replaced each year; and here's the kicker- every spring and fall, the system loses pressure and goes off on low water cutoff. Fluid is added and then the system runs for 6 months.
I'll be going there next week to study the problems first hand, but I'd like to get some opinions first. I'm looking at a real Heat Loss Calculation; an indirect-fired DHW recommendation and Rhomar testing of the system fluid. That twice yearly loss of pressure leads me to think "Hidden Leak". Advice? Thanks.
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My first
thought would be system leaks. This could explain high fuel consumption, lwc cutoffs, component consumption, etc.
It would also be a simple first step before you commmit to a price of over haul.
Pressurize the system to 25 psi and monitor it for a day or so. Sometimes systems leak worse when hot and running, like a nail or screw in a pex tube.
I've also installed a small water meter on boiler feeds to documant exactly how much the system leaks. With that number you could calculate fuel use, or fuel waste
hot rod
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water meter
Hey Hot Rod,
Where do you pick these up, are they pricey? Sounds like a nice must have thing for any new large scale radiant system.
Cosmo0 -
I saw these mini meters
at the ISH Frankfurt show 14 years ago. They are sold through Istec. They use them for drinking fountains, if and when you find a drinking fountain in Germany. No free water over there
It will read a very small, triclke flow. Handy for spotting leaks or initial fills to obtain system capacity.
hot rod
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I saw these mini meters
at the ISH Frankfurt show 14 years ago. They are sold through Istec, the BTU meter folks.
They use them for drinking fountains, if and when you find a drinking fountain in Germany. No free water over there
It will read a very small, trickle flow. Handy for spotting leaks or initial fills to obtain system capacity.
www.istec-corp.com
hot rod
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that sounds like a leak buh....
it may have many variables. one may be the location of the air relife to the system pump they may be acting as air addmitance rather than the intended purpose..the other thing is there may be some insallation practices that were "Other" or Different ,it could be insulation not being where we would put it or not enough and you are heating the ground near the perimeter,...and maybe the perimeter has many jogs and sprawling cement walls that are under or un insulated under ground...water table might be high or the ground run off sufficent to move many BTU's away from building...could be lots of glass expances poorly insulated maybe no vapor barrier...
the fact that you keep losing water though sounds like maybe it is most likely a leak . i would look for the zones that are air bound and purge and lock all the zones off.then pressure test each zone through the no kink or purge valve for that zone...at like 30 psi right...no reason to tempt fate on any marginal zones loop or loops.
if you find a leaker, cut in a wirsbo propex valveand shut it off. if you find it is some weeally weally weird tubing it may not have an O barrier and that might be causing way more problems...because you will be back at the boiler again looking at what can be done to salvage the system...plate exchangers etc....0 -
Ooh
Just what I needed. Yes Constantin, electrical brownouts galore on this penninsula, so a UPS. Hot Rod: translating water consumption into oil consumption, is it gallons of H20 into pounds into BTU? Weezbo: may be pulling air into system through air vents. Also, just found out there is a sump pump in the radiant slab. OOH! Makes me think of groundwater sucking up BTU's.
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> Hey Hot Rod,
>
> Where do you pick these up, are
> they pricey? Sounds like a nice must have thing
> for any new large scale radiant system.
> Cosmo
> Hey Hot Rod,
>
> Where do you pick these up, are
> they pricey? Sounds like a nice must have thing
> for any new large scale radiant system.
> Cosmo
Most boiler manufacturers or distributors of industrial water softeners can sell you one. Good Luck0
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