Make-up water - pics

Robert O'Connor_12

I'm curious, what state are you in? Which code(s) have your state adopted? How large of a boiler are you referring to in reference to your inspector jab? I thought the original poster was referring to a residential job, no? There is *overlapping enforcement* within the "Great State of New Jersey", and yes I DO look at all the boiler piping on a whole.
As far as the valving goes, I'm surprised everyone missed this one.
First, a pipe needs to be added/installed on the back-flow preventers discharge to an approved location.


And second,


2003 International Mechanical Code; Section 1205- 1205.1.4 Pressure reducing valves. Shut off valves shall be installed on BOTH sides of a pressure reducing valve.



As far as valving and or requirements for valves within a closed hydronic system, section 1205 (1205.1 Where required) may be what you referring to because 1205.1 refers to the system (closed heating side beyond the back-flow), and 1205.1.4 Pressure-reducing is a separate requirement only pertaining to the isolation of the PRV.


Valves in a hydronic system have several uses. Valves are a fluid-controlling element in a hydronic system. Valves are required to isolate system components to facilitate repair, maintenance or replacement of system devices, components or piping. Valves are also used to take system components out of service temporarily. The way I interpret 1205.1 is that it only addresses isolation valves but does not address pressure-reducing valves, relief valves (other than in Section 1205.2), purge and vent valves, zone valves or flow control valves such as check valves, modulating valves, balancing valves, thermostatic control valves and similar devices. Sections 1205.1.1 through 1205.1.6 describe locations where valves are required to isolate the hydronic system components. The valves allow the isolation of a system components without the need to drain the entire system.
Draining a water hydronic system, as I'm sure most of us here know (or should know) causes air to enter the system, and will require that fresh water to be introduced to refill the system. The time-consuming process of purging and bleeding air from the system and the corrosion problems associated with new water make it desirable to avoid system draining whenever possible.

I'd like to think that I'm not one of those "rouge" inspectors that walks around with the book(s) in hand (you know the ones I'm talking about), but I can assure you that I take ALOT of pride within my own installations and pursuits and I just can't give you a free pass on that comment because you say so. Inspectors within New Jersey DO inspect system and system piping and without the installation of the two items I've mentioned above, the installer would have had to make a correction.


As far as Mark's inspector not picking up on the pump location, I'd have to refer him to the manufacturer's installation instructions on that one. It would seem silly to install it that way and MOST instructions support that.


Comments?


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Mark_46

Ball valve position

In my make-up water pipe line there is a ball valve, a backflow preventer and a pressure reducing valve. I think that's what each device is by name, correct?

My question is whether the ball valve should be normally open or closed? These pics were taken before the job was done but the location and configuration of this pipe line is the same.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

We always

leave it on. A lot of other installers prefer to leave it off and install a low-water cutoff.

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Mark_46

Alan

Thanks for the reply.

My system has a LWC so I guess it could be closed?

But what's the advantage of leaving it open? If left open water level can be 'restored' (forget about purging for a moment) automatically right? But if water level dropped there must be a leak somewhere, or worse...in which case you wouldnt want to allow auto refilling. Am I thinking in the right direction?

Robert O'Brien

Gaskets

and air vents will all leak to some extent sooner or later.If you leave closed you will lose pressure eventually.

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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

An open fill valve

takes care of most of the nuisance calls that can plague a hydronic system. Even with the valve open, the fill valves will often "stick" in the closed position.

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Dale

valve

I think closed is the right answer, two reasons, one is that things have a way of leaking and a constant feed to somewhere when you're not home can be expensive, second the mfg. instructions says to leave them closed, third of my 2 reasons is that they often leak through enough to over pressure the system. Just an opinion, most I see are left open.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Dale is correct

and it just goes to show that there are always many answers to a hydronic heating questions and none of them are wrong.

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ALH_4

Under Pressure

As long as you have a LWCO and know where the valve is and what pressure your system should be at, I see no need to leave it open. All this does it postpone the no heat call because of a leak until you find some area of your home flooded with unlimited amounts of water. If you have a leak, you want to know and there is no way to know other than to keep an eye on the pressure to see if it drops. Also if you have antifreeze in your system you do not want fresh water being added without antifreeze addition.

-Andrew

hr

Closed, but

on a brand new system I leave them on for a week or so to assure all the air has purged and water entered the air left

hot rod

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[Deleted User]

NO connections allowed...

in our company. It's an agreement we have with our insurance company. We limit their exposure to liability from water damage by NOT having a solid connection to the make up system, they agree to continue insuring us.

We use two expansion tanks. One on the inlet before the PRV that acts as a reservoir to compensate for the potential loss of volume due to de-aereation and is usually charged with as much water pressure as we can get into the tank within the tanks capability, and the other that is the real expansion tank serving the expansion/contraction needs of the system.

All of this came about due to a system we had installed that developed a leak in a soldered joint 2 years after completion. It did over $30,000 worth of damage before it was discovered. Made me want to cry and also made me want to get out of the hydronic heating business...

We do use a LWCO on every system we install, and in some cases a LPCO (pressure). Face it fellas, if there is a leak in the system, regardless of where it is, it needs to be found and fixed ASAP.

Our insurance company said that their industry would LOVE to see our system required by code... Don't hold your breath waiting:-)

If the home in in a situation of occasional occupancy, a low temp alarm is a MUST. If you think water at 12 PSI can do a lot of damage, imagine what a whole house plumbing system that froze, broke and thawed out can do... SURF'S UP!!

ME

Unknown

everbody got a point here, however....

However, from the pix that shown, where's the pump located? Shud be after the air scoop and hate installing st. el as shown...

ALH_4

This may sound stupid but....

Why not use one bigger expansion tank on the system side?

-Andrew

rich pickering

Question for you Mark.
What psi do have in the pig? Reason I ask is that up here,according to my boiler code, if I have more than 30 psi in a tank, it is supposed to be an asme rated tank.

[Deleted User]

Andy, that works, but....

when you deplete the reservoir of fluid in th eoversized expansion tank, your pressure drops to ZERO in a HURRY. With the reservoir tank, you can "monitor" residual pressure within the reservoir tank and know BEFORE you hit zero that there is a leak out in the system...

No leaks = stable reserve pressure.

Leak = continuously dropping reserve tank pressure

Been there, tried that, wasn't happy with the end result.

ME

[Deleted User]

Rich...

All of the space heating tanks we use are rated for an operating pressure around 60 PSI and are not ASME rated. Watts potable thermal expansion tanks are rated for 150 PSI. The only obvious difference between them and the heating tanks are the phenolic lining on the inside of the tank to resist the rusting tendencies of potable water. I think that 's an industry standard. This is the water pressure side of the PRV which is the plumbing inspectors realm, not the boiler inspectors world. Ive always thought of the Pressure Reducing Valve as being the determinate point of where to apply the plumbing code versus the mechanical/boiler code, but I could be wrong:-)

ME

hr

well tanks work well

and they come in a lot of sizes. pressure rated and fairly inexpensive compared to ASME hydronic tanks.

hot rod

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Plumdog_2

The reservior is the way to go

There really is no good reason to connect a closed loop system to the potable water supply except for convenience and constant make-up when leaks are present somewhere in the system. I am involved in a job where a vacation home sustained expensive damage because of the freeze-break-thaw flood scenario of which you speak. Not my install, luckily for me; but as a result I will be using a feeder tank and freeze alarm device on all new work. I could change my name to Reservoir Dog. Do I send royalty checks to anyone in particular?

Plumdog_2

technically

the union gasket on the outlet side of the backflow preventor is the line that the plumbing inspector will not cross. If his eyes accidentally wander past that point he is in grave danger of causing angry phone calls to the Governor; and that is reason enough not to look.

Mark_46

Hi rjbphd

I'm not too happy to say the circulator is mounted before the scoop. Long story but getting the plumber to do anything other than what he wanted (sub contractor) was similar to trying to thread a needle in a wind storm. And the borough inspector agreed it isnt correct or ideal but is also not a code violation. And so it goes.

Actually, Im pretty dissatisfied with all of the near boiler piping. I had 'hopes and dreams' of having a layout similar to some of the Munchkin install jobs I've seen here on the Wall. But reality is often quite diefferent than what you may envision.

For now, Im running hydro-air. If we dont like it my backup plan will be to switch to radiant baseboard. Maybe then I'll make the near boiler piping the way I want it...of course at more cost than what I've already spent.

Mark_46

Thanks everybody

for all the feedback. Great discussion!

It seems the overwhelming answer to my question is keep the valve closed (6 posters say keep it closed, 1 says keep it open). I believe in the wisdom of a crowd ). Besides, keeping it closed just makes good sense.

Mark_46

Hi Robert

Im in New Jersey as well.

Yes, this system is mine and is a residential application.

Yes, a discharge pipe on the backflow preventer was installed. As I said in the original message, these pictures were taken before the job was done.

Yes, the install instructions as well as general practice support the fact that the circulator should not 'pump' into the scoop/expansion tank. I didnt and still dont like it along with the rest of the near boiler piping. But as I said the plumber was not cooperative or open to my input (the guy paying the bills!) and the inspector ruled this wasnt really corect but also wasnt a code violation. What else can a home owner do?

Plumdog_2

Robert;

my comments are intended only as tongue-in-check fun poking at Colorado rural inspection practices; many of which have never evolved much beyond the 60's. Some inspectors would rather ignore a boiler, venting, combustion air violation than risk getting chewed out for sticking his nose where it is legally not invited. Kudos to you and inspectors of your mindset; we could use strictor enforcement around here for sure. Some counties have State inspections for Plumbing and Electrical and local inspections for structural and heating; and sometimes no inspections whatsoever for heating.

mtfallsmikey

Why was the drain from the backflow preventer...

Not piped to a floor drain? A touchy subject, all with good answers both ways. I just had a 2" RPZ fail and dump condenser water thru the roof and ruin a ladie's bathroom ceiling, so test them there devices if you have them tied into potable water!

tim smith

fill valve, on or off

In Seattle it is required to have a automatic fill valve w/ double check & air gap backflow preventer. Per our boiler code, it must be left on. We can't use B&G fill valves any longer due to their wording in their installation instructions that say's after initial fill you must turn off valve. They supposedly had a water damage claim a few years ago and then decided to put that wording in for liability reasons.