Can I just vent a sec? (The Youngster)

Fred Campbell

Haven't heard tht term in awhile. Way back when I first struck out on my own I overheard a conversation between an owner/GC and kidded him for a few years that I would only work "on retainer". I should resurrect that but in all honesty I haven't had a deadbeat in quite a while.

Josh, I feel for ya. Maybe he just wanted to see what the "other side" was like. A lot of us might say screw you pal, and walk. I don't know about the consulting thing. I think if you're going to "undo" it should be with wrench and torch in hand. How the heck does someone wind up with four heating plants and two zones? Good luck and don't undersell yourself.

I read it here first and am only paraphrasing:

The excitement of a low price is quickly overshadowed by the agony of a poor installation.

Someone please clarify and identify the originater of that quote. It's a keeper and speaks volumes.

Josh_10

I had a guy ask for a bid on a 10,000 Square foot house about three months ago. He had seen some work I did and wanted to hire apparently only me. He told me that he wanted the best equipment and to bid labor at a price that would allow me to take my time.

So naturally I bid some great stuff out and since I always do my finest work I bid my standard labor price. I turned in my bid and called three days later just to follow up. He didn't return my call. I called again a week later and still no answer or retured call.

Now three months later he calls me and humbly asked for forgiveness for hiring the wrong guy. He hired the "Wall Mart" of radiant contractors out here. They installed 4 hot water heaters to handle the load and 2 zones for the whole house. Compare that with my 12 zones 1 Weil-Mclain ultra and a geothermal heat pump.

At any rate none of it works so he offered to pay me my consulting rate to un-do the work. I am going to do it for the sake of the Radiant Floor industry as a whole but I am not happy about it. Why did he tell me he wanted the good stuff when he didn't really mean it? I gave him budget numbers up front and he said no big deal!

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Mark Hunt

Money is no object


until they have to spend it.(Or if you don't have any)

I know how you feel.

Mark H

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Unknown

That's really odd mixed messages there Josh, but I have to ask.. why didn't he KNOW the value of what you offerred him? Did you assume he knew because he asked for the best?

jackchips_2

I'm sure you

have already decided this, Josh but just in case the only agreement to have with this guy is "retainer".

Cash up front.

Jack

Josh_10

You know Rob I asked myself the same question over the last few months many times. It was supposed to be a dream job.

I think the answer is yes though. He did know the value because we ran cost simulations on about 5 different systems and he told me which one he wanted me to bid.

At any rate I just returned from the jobsite. It is worse than I thought it would be. Where do I start?

Well they didn't use any manifolds. They just stubbed up into the nearest wall whenever they came to the end of their loop. They ganged em all together on a 3/4" line which by my calculations should have been 1". So they can't purge the lines individually because everything is now piped in parallel behind the walls. I think this explains the "cold spots."

Second the whole house is on one Taco 007 pump. Yes I said 007. And did I mention that the house is 10,000 square feet?

Well to make a long story short I told the guy the only way we are going to fix anything is to start completly over. He went on to explain that the company he hired is related to his wife.

I have to say that I have never seen a heating system this messed up. I even worked for a rep for a while. You would think I would have seen it all afer that.

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Unknown

wow. I don't (*edit: envy) you, him, his house, or his marriage. That sounds like the ultimate hack job. I can't even imagine how hard that guy must be kicking himself now. Man, you'd think once he'd seen it done right he'd have noticed a few red flags during construction at least???

Josh_10

I think he did but he was to embarassed to call me! Can you blame him?

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Unknown

Well, maybe he'll learn a very expensive lesson in assertiveness. Hope things get better for him with his next wife

Josh_10

That's hilarious. And funny enough cheers me up a little!

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Christian Egli_2

The wife gets half the estate. That's why they did 2 zones.

You'll need to fix them up with an even number of pumps.

My first thought was that this customer was out to pick your brain for free, then run with your design to a knock off shop. To the family sweatshop it seems.

Now what? the customer is back for more consulting advice. But not for free this time. This seems encouraging, as though a lesson has been learned. I don't fault anyone for trying out a solution that had to be tried. Business is business. And with that in mind, it shouldn't happen twice either.

Since the rework is on stuff that is not entirely yours you should not be carrying the liability for it (that's for the one 007 pump... that is). Get a written disclaimer for whatever might go wrong in the future, you're only fixing not building from scratch. This way, even if you don't make much more money than originally expected, at least there is a (non cash) savings from liabilities.

All that is advice you didn't need. All I really want to say, is that I have no doubt you'll work wonders.

10000 ft2; 2 zones; it doesn't work; and it isn't even the coldest part of the summer. That poor job was the most extravagantly expensive option. The owner was right, costs did not matter indeed.

Josh_10

Well the only people who can afford poor heating systems are rich people right? Actually guys I don't think I will be doing any work for this guy. I simply don't have the time. I already gave him all the extra time I have. He paid me for four hours of my time this afternoon. I can undo alot of mistakes but this one simply can't be undone without ripping out walls and GypCrete.

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Perry_2

Is he willing to let you do the job in parts

I know that many people do not like to spread projects over a long time - but if he is willing to allow you to rebuild the system (including tearout and doing it right)a section at a time... then you could get started and over the next year or two finish it off. Much like rehabing an older house (only this would be a new house rehab).

If he is honestly willing to pay you a good fee for doing it right - this may be a workable solution.

Perry