bronze circulators

bluemoon

Thanks ....think I'm gonna join your team!

bluemoon

potable pumps

Hey you pros out there....how 'bout some input on bronze pumps....I use plate heat exchangers to store domestic h/w...taco 006 fail constantly....any suggestions?

Dirk_2

Bronze Pumps

Try grundfos they've always lasted longer than Tacos for me

Weezbo

Use a strainer or two...

this is glycol to glycol buh the idea is the same.

John White

Taco 006

The notion that any wet rotor circulator outlast a Taco 00 series in similar or correct applications is simply incorrect...at least 40 years of history would tell that.

How about this approach.....
Contact Joe Mattiello at Taco and try to figure out what might be causing the failures. It might save some trouble in the future, no matter whose circulator you use.
There can be a number of reasons for failures in domestic water applications, and several different solutions.
Try my suggestion about calling Joe.
John White

bluemoon

007s not much better

Hey...I like the pumps...just seems that lately they have been failing more often...not just the 006 but the 007s also...they are always red hot even when there is no problem occuring...or maybe that is the problem, they run too hot then fail....I've had to smack 'em with a hammer on the housing because they're bound up somehow...can't tell if they are pumping or not mostly...pain in the butt..ya' know

Weezbo

Bluemoon....

is there any possibility that electricians are running them without water ? none of the wet rotors like that much.

sometimes very seldom..i may have everything piped yet without being filled or purged...the electrician came and wired it up....(when i am not the one with time to wire things) and funny thing is these are the only circs that i can actually recall ever needing a cartridge..... thats the bronze body,oo3 oo4 oo6 i have a bronze body pump on a water heater with about 450000+ btu's ( Kw) out put that i use for temporary heat on many radiant jobs i drain it down and leave it out in the weather and use it whenever it is needed...i have been doing that with the thing for Years...wet rotors HATE dry runs and Excess air,so,even though i have it runing at a stout pressure i have a baseboard T and a taco Automatic air vent on the supply with a "pinner valve"made by jomar to spin it out of the equasion all together and pre purge through a washing machine hose that has a small nip and a band clamp holding it together that way i can get all the air out of the system by reverse flushing the system after eliminating the air out of the heat source...it really works great and as it pumps into the baseboard T past the eliminatorit seems to keep it from ever cavitating...i didnt want to mention this buh...some other manufacturers stainless steel pumps had three strikes in a row this summer i got one of the three. i took the thing apart to go get a cartridge and found a casting error....ok? so i asked Vicky to see if she might get one of the ladds to check the other two ....they arent inclined to do so yet we took a peek at the other two ...same thing so sometimes even really goood stainless pump bodies can have an error for whatever reason....Taco is a company i like and in the last two years they really have been getting a few more pieces on the shelves...let me say thta were you to get a product run line # or date the Taco guys would likely have a record of any similar observances and trade you off the cartridge. at least i think that to be the truth.

Joe Mattiello

Taco bronze pumps are great!

Good morning
Admittedly it has been a couple of days since visiting the wall, and I feel remiss for not sharing some of my experiences with all of you looking for answers. This morning I came in the office and found your thread on bronze pumps. Bronze pumps are typically used in open systems, for example: recirculation of domestic water, potable water, radiant systems with pex tubing non oxygen barrier type where osmosis would be a detriment to any ferrous materials. These few that I mentioned are very difficult applications with many variables that may cause a pump to fail prematurely. As Johnny white mentioned in his correspondence, any pump manufacture has the same legitimate concerns. Taco, has always offered a generous 3 year manufactures warranty on the replaceable cartridge in the 00 series, bronze, or cast iron pumps. Let’s talk about that for a minute. Hypothetical situation, customer has acidic water pump fails after a year, because of the Taco design you can replace the cartridge, as opposed to the whole pump like some of Taco’s competitors, and Taco will replace it under the manufactures warranty. Wow!! Can you beat that? Taco supplies pumps to approximately 90% of the original equipment manufactures. That is because of the quality of the product, and as Weezbo said in his thread, Taco stands behind the product, and “Taco guys would likely have a record of any similar observances and trade you off the cartridge. at least i think that to be the truth”. Taco has 5 technical support technicians to answer your questions, and help you with your HVAC project. Incidentally, I get tech calls on competitors products because we are customer service oriented. You will never get an automated operator at taco. Taco always has 2 lovely young ladies to answer your call, and direct you to technical services.

bluemoon

Thanks for the reply....not sure I need tech support though...what I need is a bronze pump that will be trouble free ....I get the feeling that these pumps fail intermitantly ....is that possible?...I'm very serious about the fact that I've just smacked them with a hammer to get them running again...then replace them because I really can't tell the client to "hit this thing if the heat goes off" ....could they be starting...then stopping...then starting....etc...?

Steve M_2

Taco pumps

You had to smack it with a hammer to get it going. Did you check the capacitor? You can't do that with a Grundflos pump, the leads are too short to wire the capacitor back or even to replace it with another. Taco pumps you can replace the impeller and cap. Grundflos is a good pump but it's a throwaway, like a cheap plastic item from WalMart. Can't tell the Taco if pumping? You forgot to put in isolation flanges or ball valves? I'm not trying to bust anybodies chops but Taco is the superior pump and I'm surprised Grundfos hasn't risen to the challenge in their designs.

Arthur

Any pump will fail if it is cavitating for long, The hotter the water the greater the minimum static head the pump must have, We don't use Taco over here in NZ but the two major pumps we use are Wilo, or Gundfoss and they both warn about minimum static head. Cavitation occurres when the pump rotor causes the water to 'boil' because of effect of low pressure on the water,
Remember the temperature water boils is dependant on the pressure, while hi pressure raises the boiling temperature, Low pressure reduces the boiling temperature.
This is one reason I am of the old school and like to put pumps on the heating system return.

steve_93

Check your wiring and voltages.

Multiple failures leads me to believe, it's not the pumps ,but something else.

bluemoon

thanks for the reply...we need throw aways around here....service charges run upwards of $125 hr so we can't be spending 2 hours repairing a $60 pump the client would freak....ideally a pump that lasts more than a year ....it's nice that tacos are so easy to repair but maybe they are made that way because they fail so often? I'm not building the space shuttle here...just taking water from the bottom of a tank, through a plate heat exchanger & back into the tank...just need a broze pump to do it!

bluemoon

Thanks ....I didn't know what caused captivation...but I'm using this on domestic with min 60lbs pressure...taking water from the bottom of a tank, through a plate heat exchanger & back into the top of the tank..can captivation occur in this situation?

Dirk Wright

Water quality

What's the data on your water quality? Do you have very hard water? What is the pH? When you take the cartridge out, can you still spin the impeller by hand? You need to inspect the failed pump as part of the determination of what went wrong. Taco specifies neutral water for it's pumps.

Nron_13

look at your pipe sizes water velocity can kill pumps to

hr

I've never had to tap a Grundfos

and the new circ have an electronic wiggle device to prevent hard water sticking issues.

In addition to a three year warranty, and three speed motors on some models with more 3 speeds around the corner. Pretty easy to see the clear cut winner in small wet rotor market. Something like 9 million Grundfos circs a year are shipped.

hot rod

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Arthur

The system pressure has nothing to do with it. What happens is that if the pump is running (sucking) too fast the drop in pressure on the inlet side of the pump lowers the pressure in comparsion to the pressure on the other side of the pump. This then causes the water to vapourise and no pump will stand this,
Check the following, 1) Check the delta t of the water going in to and out of the heat exchanger, (Delta T + temperature difference)
2) Check the difference in pressure between the pump inlet and the pump outlet. Then compare it with the pump makers performance chart, give the delta T and pressure figures to the pump maker and ask if this could cause problems.
3) What speed is the pump running at, drop it down to the lowest speed and see how it goes,
4) On an open system which you appear to have we have found more sucess with a open glanded pump. These tend to more expensive but are more economic in the long run,
We Had canned pumps on the secondary return for domestic supply from a calorifier but due to the high limestone in the water gunking up the rotor.
5) If you are 'sucking' out of the heat exchanger remember these plate changer have a VERY high internal resistance. When ever I use a plate exchanger I aways try to pump TO the heat exchanger not away FROM.
Remember it is usually easier to push a wheel barrow than to put it.

[Deleted User]

The olds school boys...

had rag seals to deal with and had no idea what the PONPC was. Do you know what the PONPC is and its effect on a pumps ability to move water?

I don't want to bore you if you do, but if you don't, just ask and I will be glad to share and teach you.

ME

bluemoon

C'mon...bore me ...i'll be happy to learn