Hot water usage on Sabbath

Zalmen L Blau

I am looking for a way to run hotwater in a Sabbath observant home. We have a Turbomax (on the roof) can I install a storage tank that would be filled & heated on Friday afternoon & rely on gravity with an air vent to drop the hotwater until Saturday night. Will there be a bacteria issue? Will a Pressure balanced valve work?

Steve Garson

Can't you simply leave the tap on slightly, much like leaving the oven running?

Jason_15

Sabbath

Just curious, why would someone observing sabbath not want to heat water over the weekend? I guess I don't know what sabbath really is.

Paul Pollets

Calling Mikvaman

Moses Fischman can probably answer this best. He's a lic. (Orthodox)master plumber in NYC.

Chuckles_3

When the oven is running, the thermostat controls the heating coils, for example switching the heat on when the door is opened (I assume it is OK to manually open the oven door?) or food is put in. The electricity through the coils---or the flame, if gas---does not actually stay on all the time.

This seems to me equivalent to having normal domestic hot water. Nothing has to be directly switched on and off, but using the hot water by manually running the tap will cause the heating to go on for a while.

Is this not accepted logic? (I realize that "logic" does not really apply here.) If using timer switches for lights is OK, why not thermostats?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

For orthodox Jews the Sabbath is from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. No work can be done and no business conducted.

In the strictest sense, it's also applied to human-made devices that assist human work.

Things get really strange...

Cosmo_3

Intresting

And I complain to myself about fasting for Easter! I guess a Rabbi should be consulted as to the parameters of what constitues work. I assume lights are turned on at night, etc. Intresting theological question.....

Cosmo Valavanis
Dependable PHC Inc

larry

Lights cannot be turned on at night. The observant orthodox will have timers (or a lighting automation system) do the light switching for them.

larry

I know with refrigerators that observant jews will unscrew the light bulb during the sabbath. Some new refrigerators have a "sabbath mode" (see http://www.star-k.org/cons-abou-news.htm) as light bulbs aren't the only things can be turned on and off in modern appliances when the door opens. Some ovens also have a sabbath mode now.

If you search around you can find some newsgroups and websites where you could pose a particular "sabbath-proof" design where many will offer their opinions.

Carl PE

Can you

just put in a 7-day timer to lock out the dhw at certain times of the week?

And while we're on the subject.. what about heat and a/c? Do they have to unplug their sump pump on saturdays?

larry

I really don't understand the religious logic that goes into what is acceptable and what isn't. The rabinical scholars boil question like this down into fundamental bits from which they determine what is right. Some things which would seem to be OK to a less learned person aren't and vice versa.

I know in NYC there are highly religous colleges with high rise dorms where they have elevators operating automatically during the sabbath. I guess they are programmed to just stop on every floor. On the surface it seems like things that are setup to operate without human intervention are more acceptable than not. I guess you just can't reset your thermostat during the sabbath, but it's normal operation is OK. It would seem that a timer function might do the trick for the DHW (maybe that is why the Viessmann control has all those timing functions for DHW production).

Dan_15

The fundamental issue is that using DHW causes the boiler to fire. This causal connection, however indirect, is impermissible in some circles. A timer would not be an unreasonable solution, so that the boiler does not fire upon water usage, but rather at a fixed time. With a decent insulated indirect tank, the hot water could conceivably remain warm during the period that the timer is off until the timer kicks in again. For super-strict observers, the timer could be set to cut off the DHW burner for the entire 25 hours from sundown to sundown. There are some well-insulated indirect tanks that could keep the water warm for this long.

larry

This stuff is complicated...

It's OK to keep your refrigerator "on" during the sabbath as long as you disable everything that might directly turn on when the door is opened (e.g. light, LED displays, ...). However, the act of opening the door is as likely to make the compressor turn on as using some hot water will make the boiler turn on. You could argue that the electronics of the refrigerator are "on" before sabbath, so it's continued use is OK. By the same token, the boiler's controls are always "on". It appears to be a similar type of situation. It is complicated, and I certainly don't understand it.

Dan_15

Hey man I do not understand all this Jesus stuff, but I accept that a bulk of humanity does. I was just answering the guy's question, not trying to understand the entire religion. It is conceivable that there are some rules of the road that you do not understand, which represent strong beliefs of others, isnt it?

larry

Dan,

Sorry if my reply set you off. It certainly wasn't my intention. As my reply said, "It is complicated, and I certainly don't understand it". I don't know why you think I'm intolerant of other's belief's. Was just trying to rationialize it based on my limited understanding, and having lived with a sister who is about as observant as is possible. From a family perspective we went around the block on issues similar to this. I agree with you that a timer function should do the trick, but I'm no authority to say so. It has been my experience that when it comes to these kind of issues you need to consult with those who study the religious law, and it does require diving into the religion. It's just my opinion that the question of the OP *is* 99.9% religion and 0.1% plumbing. Again, sorry if I offended you in any way.

Zalmen L Blau

My original concern

Thank you all for your comments.
The halacha (law) regarding using hotwater is; by releasing hotwater you are filling the tank with cold which will start the (fire) heating procces that is absolutely forbidden,

Zalmen L Blau

My original concern

Thank you all for your comments.
The halacha (law) regarding using hotwater is; by releasing hotwater you are filling the tank with cold which will start the (fire) heating procces that is absolutely forbidden,

Zalmen L Blau

My original concern

Thank you all for your comments.

The halacha (law) regarding using hot water is; by releasing the hot water you are filling the tank with cold which will start the (fire) heating process that is absolutely forbidden.

What is done regarding opening a oven, you wait until the heating element turns "ON" THEN you open the door, so you no longer START a fire. Same applies waiting for the compressor on a refrigerator to run before opening the door.

Now my question was to get an opinion when Sabbath ends & the solenoid valves go to the weekday position, the water left in the storage tank will continue cooling down, will this be a bacteria issue?

Also will any pressure balanced valve not mix the hot water because there will be no pressure in the line during Sabbath?

Mitch_4

if they can use automatic switches use

the sensor type taps that turn the water on/off when your hand passes in front of it.

Problem solved.

Carl PE

Zalmen:

The mixing valve will not work properly if there is no pressure in the hw tank.

I'll stand by my original suggestion of the 7-day timer. Wire it into the thermostat on the heater, so that the cold water coming into the tank can't start the flame. I don't see any reason to mess with solenoid valves or additional storage tanks.

Bacteria shouldn't be a problem in the turbomax if it's shut down for one day a week. You may want to look at a larger tank, or a higher set-point to maximize your hw reserve w/o firing it.

Uni R

Sabbath

The purpose of the sabbath was to allow a day of enlightenment without people having to burden themselves. "Lighting stoves to warm water" was once work, since the water heater is fully automated it is no different than having an elevator set to stop randomly at every floor. Adapting religious tradition to technology changes is seldom as logical as it should be.


You may wish to ask their rabbi. It may be a situation where nothing short of a solenoid shutting off all the hot water faucets before dusk of Friday will suffice. Cold showers can be mindnumbingly enlightening...

larry

Depending on the budget there are "timers" which will automatically adjust for the ever changing Shabbos start and end times.

Ted Robinson

Heating hot water on the orthodox sabbath

I would like to add a comment, and hopefully not confuse. . . The problem with a conventional water heater is that when connected to the supply line, cold water enters the bottom of the tank and is heated (cooked, we say), when hot water is drawn off. So if a gravity, only system is used, then no cold water would be added. An additional complication with an operating electrical heater is that there is a cause and effect of when water is drawn out, it directly causes the heater to operate. So it is most likely that a gravity flow of stored hot water would be best, with perhaps a low continuous fire being second best.

chuck shaw

How about

using a water heater with a pilot, the fire is already lit, and by using hot water, you are just changing the stage of the fire, not the fact that there is a fire. I know little about othodox law or tradition, but somehow I feel there is some logic there.

Chuck

Bob Harper

solar

If you can wash your hands in water outdoors warmed by the sun, why not a passive solar system? Just a thought.

I'm going to offend some people here but I feel I need to say this:
There comes a point where modern religious clerics misinterpret the intent of ancient( key word) laws. The Torah or any other book of knowledge and laws did not suddenly appear one day-- it evolved over time. Why shouldn't religious laws evolved too regardless of your beliefs? By restricting their followers in the ways expressed here, they spend more time tip-toeing around trying not to fault than they do doing what this period was originally created for: deep religious reflection. In the case in point, I think some people should approach the Rabbi and discuss how complying with these rules is so oppressive, it is hindering their ability to meditate and reflect on their lives & devotion. This is not bashing anyone's beliefs but trying to reach out and help you find ways to enjoy your beliefs without feeling you are an outcast or getting excommunicated, so please take it in the spirit it is given. I am trying to offer solutions to your problems without you having to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a Smart Home system.